I also think Lomong would be a great candidate for the steeple.
I also think Lomong would be a great candidate for the steeple.
I would say Rupp would get destroyed in the steeple, but I doubt he would even last the whole race. Steeplers are tough. They don't drop out of the race when the pace picks up.
do you even hurdle bro? wrote:
Malmo, you contradict yourself. First you say there is a very low correlation between distance running ability and steeple ability, then you list a bunch of steeplers that were also excellent at distance running. Which is it?
No contradiction here. You are illogical.
If you take a group of successful steeplechasers, of course they will tend to be better runners, but their flat PRs are going to be all over the place, which means the correlation won't be very high.
Now lets take a group of successful flat runners who have tried the steeplechase and failed. The correlation will be horrible, even negative.
A specific example, Craig Virgin. In 1978 he tried the steeplechase. He was just fine over the barriers. Certainly his mental makeup and racing style indicated that he'd be fine there, but when he actually tried the SC, it was a horror show. 8:52. The same time as his college teammmate, Mike Durkin, 1976 Olympian in the 1500. Also exactly the same time as my first attempt at the event. Only I was a freshman 4:08/8:55 miler/2 miler. DO you not see the huge difference in correlation here?
Most runners simply cannot run the steeplechase. It is the polar opposite to Rupp-certified.
do you even hurdle bro? wrote:
As far as barriers versus steeples, just because you choose to abbreviate "steeple barriers" to just barriers and I choose to call them steeples doesn't mean anything. If I choose to call them steeples while running sub 830, that is my prerogative. Maybe you've coached people faster than me, but that doesn't mean I am clueless.
Yes you are clueless, and certainly NOT an 8:30 guy. But then everyone who posts on letsrun makes $250k a year, a 160 IQ, has a beautiful wife, three beautiful mistresses, and lives in a 15,000sf house. I get it.
There are no "steeples" in the steeplechase. They don't even jump over steeples in the horse race from which the name of the event comes from. In those events the horses jump over "hedges" and fences." The suffix steeple refers to the point-to-point reference marks of the villages church steeples that oriented the riders during the original steeplechase races.
Calling the barriers "steeples" would be met with the same amount of disdain and laughter as someone who calls the marathon the "thon." But everyone who posts on letsrun makes $250k a year, a 160 IQ, has a beautiful wife, three beautiful mistresses, and lives in a 15,000sf house. I get it.
This one wrote:
This.
Perfect example is Jager:
Probably currently ~4th - 6th best 5k runner in the US on most days (and he popped a 13:02)..so slightly on the outside looking in.
Put him in the steeple, he's AR holder.
An Evan Jager comes along once in a lifetime. After his first race I said he was the most natural steeplechase talent I've ever seen. He wasn't a 13:02 guy just wandering along an jumped into the steeplechase. He ran that 13:02 a year AFTER his success at the steeplechase.
This one wrote:
More than likely, Rupp, Lagat, Lomong could break the steeple record.
Extremely unlikely. Rupp and Lagat are rhythm runners. Rupp needs a protective bubble around him in flat races. No chance in hell he could run the steeple.
Lomong, I think, would have the best chance at success of the three.
Malmo do you have an explanation for why Kenya dominates the steeple but not Ethiopia? My first guess would have been that the Ethiopians are too short but that does not seem to matter. Maybe the event itself is too short.
Clint Wells, Pascal Dobert, and DOC are all over 6 feet. Vertical leap plays a role, and if you find a good basketball player in high school (athleticism you spoke of), they have a nice percentage of the tool kit required to be a good steepler.
World record holder in steeple is 11th all time for 5k. I'd say the 11th best 5k runner in history is pretty clearly a top-tier runner in his own right and would be a mistake to say he is the world record holder at steeple only because of less competition.As far as the criticism of Jager only being the AR holder because of lack of competition, he is the 8th best american all-time at 5k. You are talking less than a second per lap that he is being the AR in the 5000m. It is easy to imagine that if Lagat had run the steeple while at his 5000m AR setting abilities, he could have easily lost a second per lap to Jager even if he had spent a lot of time working on his technique.My opinion is that steeple is only significantly less competitive at the lower levels, which is why you see NCAA guys get all-american in steeple who couldn't make nationals in the 15, 5, or 10k. However, if you look at the very top, I don't believe it is different than the other events. I think any 1500/5k specialist distance runner could be nearly as competitive in the steeplechase if they took the time to work on it. Some may just be slightly better technique-wise than the others. I think the difference in technical ability would be slight among all the top distance runners.
This one wrote:
eurodonkey wrote:Traditionally, being not quite fast enough to make the team at 5000 or 1500 ;-)
This.
Perfect example is Jager:
Probably currently ~4th - 6th best 5k runner in the US on most days (and he popped a 13:02)..so slightly on the outside looking in.
Put him in the steeple, he's AR holder.
More than likely, Rupp, Lagat, Lomong could break the steeple record.
This one wrote:
More than likely, Rupp, Lagat, Lomong could break the steeple record.
Good luck finding a Rupp-Certified steeplechase.
malmo wrote:
This one wrote:This.
Perfect example is Jager:
Probably currently ~4th - 6th best 5k runner in the US on most days (and he popped a 13:02)..so slightly on the outside looking in.
Put him in the steeple, he's AR holder.
An Evan Jager comes along once in a lifetime. After his first race I said he was the most natural steeplechase talent I've ever seen. He wasn't a 13:02 guy just wandering along an jumped into the steeplechase. He ran that 13:02 a year AFTER his success at the steeplechase.
This one wrote:
More than likely, Rupp, Lagat, Lomong could break the steeple record.
Extremely unlikely. Rupp and Lagat are rhythm runners. Rupp needs a protective bubble around him in flat races. No chance in hell he could run the steeple.
Lomong, I think, would have the best chance at success of the three.
Malmo, I know it is hypothetical, but would/could an African have won 1976 Montreal steeple?
Henry Rono already had international credentials by then.