Accelerating when main opponent hits the deck

A Suck wrote:

Listen, one more time, MUTAI WAS ALREADY MAKING A BREAK. This seems to have been clear to everyone except you, which is why I asked if you had even seen the race.

To put it simply, hoping that helps you out here:

- Farah and Mutai both in a jogfest at mile 3, Farah falls, Mutai breaks? As* move.

- Mutai breaking away at mile 7, Farah having chosen not to join the break, Farah trips over his own feet? Farah's problem.

Right, I'm going to provide a little link so we have some visual evidence as to what happened at this moment.

(Hopefully not georestricted)

I see no break - I see Mutai running at the front of a fairly tight pack with a large number of athletes involved. I also see Farah right on the shoulder of the leaders - little bit different to 'not having chosen to join the break' if you ask me. He merely chose not to run at the front.

You then see Mutai look over his shoulder when Farah goes down and visibly accelerate when he turns back around - so much so that he's already dropped Sambu by a couple of metres and the rest (some of which hampered by the fall, admittedly) by further.

So, in short, Mutai accelerates when he sees Farah down. He may already have been pushing the pace along a bit, but he increases his effort markedly.

I apologise for using actual video of the race, it's so much easier making an argument when you can make your own version of things up without actual evidence.

(Oh, and take it easy on the insults, it doesn't help your case, you just seem angry)

:) :) :) (Some smiley faces to make you feel better.)

Is that one one of Gerry's boys that tripped him?

trollism wrote:

why is it seen as terrible sportsmanship in cycling?

It's only seen as poor sportsmanship in cycling if it's a random act of chance a considerable time before the dying minutes of a stage. If you go down in the last few minutes or so before the line then - like a running race - tough sh*t.

trollism wrote:

A Suck wrote:

Depends on the context.

Moments earlier, Mutai tried to get Farah (who had been hyped as his main opponent in a duel) to come up and push the pace. Farah REFUSED and went to SIT in the pack as Mutai went up front and tried to make an hones pace.

So Farah is at fault because he wanted to make the race easier for him to win and harder for Mutai to win by not pushing the pace on? That's called race tactics.

Attacking when your opponent falls is a classless move, but my question was whether it was classless and grounds for criticism or whether the sport is already that far in the gutter, that it's a fair move and should be applauded.

Unless you trip him it's not classless you moron. What was the pack supposed to do all slow down or stop. Get real dude.

Your part if the pussificatiin of the sport.

The video is restricted here in the states.

From the still picture in the link, it appears that Teg is lucky that he didn't go down with Mo.

Honestly A Suck is just as stupid as trollism. It not classless unless he caused the fall. Get over it. This isn't cycling

I'm better neith of you turd have race in anything other than hobby jog races.

UK Limey runner wrote:

It's only seen as poor sportsmanship in cycling if it's a random act of chance a considerable time before the dying minutes of a stage. If you go down in the last few minutes or so before the line then - like a running race - tough sh*t.

Toward the end, the power is almost always already on though.

It's always bad sportsmanship to react to a crash by accelerating. It doesn't matter where in the stage.

I'm not talking about waiting for the person who falls, nobody is expected to do that, particularly late on.

Dumbalough. wrote:

Honestly A Suck is just as stupid as trollism. It not classless unless he caused the fall. Get over it. This isn't cycling

I'm better neith of you turd have race in anything other than hobby jog races.

Then why is it different in cycling?

I'm not suggesting he should have waited, but I am saying that he picked his exact moment to attack at the point he realised Farah had fell. That's no coincidence. That's hugely classless in cycling, why is it different half way through (not near the end remember) of a half marathon?

If you're going to question my running credentials, surely you're going to have to give some reliable evidence of yours? Otherwise couldn't I just come back with the exact same accusation? Think about it.

Also, you're very insulting too, you do realise that getting all hot and bothered over my opinions isn't helpful to your argument?

OP,

do you mean Mutai was classless or do you mean the entire field that ran with Mo was classless?

trollism wrote:

Classless and cowardly? Or a fair move in a sport devoid of morals?

Geoffrey's move was cowardly but the .middle name of Sarah's racing tactics is "cowardly"

Rephrase it to be more clear:

OP,

do you mean Mutai was classless or do you mean the entire field that ran right next Mo when he fell and didn't wait for him was classless?

I meant farah's

trollism wrote:

he was clearly clipped by one of the guys behind him)

Clearly? Not so much.

Like the commentators I watched several times (and then a couple more, thanks to your video!) and it certainly looks as if Farah simply trips. It happens. It especially happens when you run in a pack in an unfamiliar setting (Farah rarely races on the roads) and when you are following others rather than setting your own pace and line. If you've been around that spot you know that the surface isn't very even (although it doesn't look like that's why Farah trips here.)

trollism wrote:

Fair tactic, but absolutely classless.

Fair by the rules? There is no debate whatsoever that running a race while people trip and fall behind you is legal. So your personal proclamation about fairness is moot.

Classless?

Again, we seem likely very much agreed that it would be classless to DEVELOP NEW TACTICS to exploit a fall/mechanical/lightning strike befalling an opponent.

However, there is no reasonable expectation for an athlete to interrupt or cancel TACTICS ALREADY DEPLOYED. Not only had Mutai already started to accelerate, he had signaled his intention overtly to the field, most particularly to Farah. Farah chose to stay in the pack. These moving parts were already in action when Farah tripped.

What you are failing to factor into your argument that Farah tripping here was NOT a "random event" like a lightning strike or a mechanical. In cycling, a mechanical is regarded as bad luck and not to be taken advantage of, the idea being that it 'could happen to anyone, anytime, anywhere.'

This is COMPLETELY different from Farah's fall. You get that, right? It's not as if a crazy person tackled him or the the sole suddenly fell off his shoe. He VERY PURPOSELY put himself in a place where good things can happen (drafting, saving energy, letting opponent pace you) and so can bad things (missing moves, getting gapped, tripping). That is why the analogy to a chain break in cycling doesn't serve your argument here. A more apt analogy would be Andy Schleck making a break while Wiggins sits and hopes the peoloton will pull him back. If Wiggins then can't see the oncoming course and falls in the pack, Schleck is not looking back and saying "gee, I'd better call off my break."

I assume you understand that Farah took a higher chance of falling by sitting in the pack, just as Mutai took chances by leading alone. Farah's tactical gamble failed him when he tripped.

Asking Mutai to then wait for Farah is essentially asking him to give Farah a do-over because Farah's plan didn't work as he wanted it to. If Mutai had tried to run 58:30, blown up and in his exhaustion tripped in the last 100 meters while Farah kicked from behind, should Farah have then stopped and walked in behind him? Would it be "classless" for him to kick by a stumbling, bonking Mutai? Of course not.

By the way, Farah is one of my favorite runners ever.

Off for a run! Feels great to start the day watching some great runs and winning an argument. Thanks, guy!

mmm... wrote:

OP,

do you mean Mutai was classless or do you mean the entire field that ran with Mo was classless?

Mutai. I made that quite clear.

I wasn't expecting anyone to wait.

It was using a fall as the impetus for an attack that was classless. Only Mutai did that, the others were well within their rights to cover that attack if they could.

trollism wrote:

If you're going to question my running credentials, surely you're going to have to give some reliable evidence of yours? Otherwise couldn't I just come back with the exact same accusation? Think about it.

I'm with trollism. I was enjoying a spirited discussion with one of the only people who seems to have actually watched this, and Dumbalough wants to talk PRs without giving his. How illogical.

UK Limey runner wrote:

It's only seen as poor sportsmanship in cycling if it's a random act of chance

Trollism, note this.

Farah's trip was made more likely by his decision not to go with Mutai. ie NOT random. That is why you're finding that most runners here don't see this as at all similar to a mechanical. See my long-winded post above for more on this.

trollism wrote:

mmm... wrote:

OP,

do you mean Mutai was classless or do you mean the entire field that ran with Mo was classless?

Mutai. I made that quite clear.

I wasn't expecting anyone to wait.

It was using a fall as the impetus for an attack that was classless. Only Mutai did that, the others were well within their rights to cover that attack if they could.

WHY?

You can't speed up after someone falls?

So your incapability of accelerating IN A RACE makes you moral?

A Suck wrote:

This is COMPLETELY different from Farah's fall. You get that, right? It's not as if a crazy person tackled him or the the sole suddenly fell off his shoe. He VERY PURPOSELY put himself in a place where good things can happen (drafting, saving energy, letting opponent pace you) and so can bad things (missing moves, getting gapped, tripping). That is why the analogy to a chain break in cycling doesn't serve your argument here. A more apt analogy would be Andy Schleck making a break while Wiggins sits and hopes the peoloton will pull him back. If Wiggins then can't see the oncoming course and falls in the pack, Schleck is not looking back and saying "gee, I'd better call off my break."

Off for a run! Feels great to start the day watching some great runs and winning an argument. Thanks, guy!

Few problems with these statements. You say you watch the video, but you still seem certain that Mutai had broken away at this point. I feel you're hanging on to that one, because it's the only thing that holds your flimsy argument together.

Mutai hadn't made a break, he was merely at the front of a large group of runners. Using a cyclist in a break as an example doesn't really make sense, as nobody had made a break.

I never once said that Mutai or anyone should have waited, but using the fall as a good moment to attack (which he did) is not a good move. (very similar to what Movistar did to Leipheimer in the 2012 Paris-Nice, for what it's worth)

A Suck wrote:

trollism wrote:

If you're going to question my running credentials, surely you're going to have to give some reliable evidence of yours? Otherwise couldn't I just come back with the exact same accusation? Think about it.

I'm with trollism. I was enjoying a spirited discussion with one of the only people who seems to have actually watched this, and Dumbalough wants to talk PRs without giving his. How illogical.

Dumba$$. I wasn't talking about pRs or speed. I was talking about running in certain races.

I'm suggesting if you think it's "classless" to exploit these types of events in a race. You probably haven't competed in a high caliber race or a race with any real stakes other than finishing.

The problem is that you two keep calling it classless. It's called Real racing. It's not and has never been classless

What are you talking about "watched" this. I watched the whole race Mutai wanted to push the pace before his. But you really didn't watch it actually as the station was on a break when the trip occurred so unless you were watching it live neither of you know

Now kid. We call that Game, Set and Match