Marathon Programs [Daniels, Pfitzinger, Hudson]

can't say i've tried all 3 unless "reading" counts. I've used Pfitz/Douglas many times -- first by following quite closely and later with more individualization -- with good results by my standards.

As to flexibility and structure....my guess would be that Pfitzinger and Douglas [were they personally coaching you] would be fine with your shuffling things around a bit to fit your family and work skeds. If I remember right, earlier version of their program [maybe in road racing for serious runners marathon chapter? don't want to wake my wife up by breaking into our room to look it up] actually was like Daniels in terms of giving the key workouts and total mileage for a "microcycle" and then letting you fill in the details on recovery days and on w/o scheduling. But readers requested a more specific plan to follow, and they've obliged.

good luck with your training and with sub-3:00 quest,

Dave

I post in the weekly Road Racing and Training thread. I am a married 35 year old working guy with two young daughters, 8 and 4 years old. I totally relate to your situation.

Given your proposed volume (55-70mi week), target goal (sub-3:00), and family commitments, I would urge you to also consider the Hansons Marathon Method.

While each of the other programs has their own merits, I think the Hansons plan has the most to offer your particular circumstances.

Yes, you have to fit in an interval workout and marathon pace tempo run in your schedule every week, but you do a long run only every other week, freeing up your energy and time for your family on the weekends. Plus the long run would top out in the 16 mile range for you, versus the multiple 20-24 mile runs that Daniels/Pfitz have you doing.

I think Hudson is a very under-rated coach, and I like the principles of his adaptive philosophy, but I feel that his methodology is best suited for 5k-HM training and not marathons. The Hansons Plan will have you ready for a marathon.

You can elect to use the off day they recommend each week, or you can elect to add some overall volume by increasing the length of some of your easy days or your warmups/cooldowns. You also have flexibility to move workout days around so long as you preserve at least one easy/recovery day in-between workouts.

I have used Daniels several times topping out around 75/mi week with a best marathon performance of 2:59:50. I have used Hansons for one marathon cycle (2:55:57) and one half-marathon cycle (1:19:57) and felt totally prepared for both races with less aches/niggles along the way. I held on for my life to run the 2:59:50 using Daniels (I survived the training, so to speak), whereas I did my fastest running the second half and the last 10k of my 2:55:57 (I got stronger and stronger as the cycle progressed).

I am starting another training cycle now using most of the Hansons principles with a goal of breaking 2:50. For my money, you get the most bang for your buck using the Hansons.

Best wishes on your pursuit of sub-3:00.

The Stone Cutter wrote:

I held on for my life to run the 2:59:50 using Daniels (I survived the training, so to speak),

Sounds like you didn't do something correctly, such as you were too optimistic choosing your VDOT (not using current race, too short of a race or using "goal pace" instead of a race). Or you ran the easy days too fast.

I'm in the same boat.

In the past two years I've run PRS at several distances,

5ks, 1610,1605,1559(road),1550 (track)

5mile, 2755, 2706, 2640(xc), 2601(road)

10k 3430, 3354,3330

HM: 115, 116,113

I ran the HMs with a long run maxing out at 15 miles. I'd like to run a spring marathon. I don't want to simply finish, but I don't want to die either. I'm thinking 240-244 for a goal time.

I have a self-imposed 7 hour running limit for the week.

Any ideas?

Kevin52 wrote:

The Stone Cutter wrote:

I held on for my life to run the 2:59:50 using Daniels (I survived the training, so to speak),

Sounds like you didn't do something correctly, such as you were too optimistic choosing your VDOT (not using current race, too short of a race or using "goal pace" instead of a race). Or you ran the easy days too fast.

Fair points, but I disagree. My recent PRs at that time included 17:38 5k and 1:22:19 HM. I stuck to the training paces to a tee. But I believe the undue stress from the race came more from doing overly demanding workouts (like 16mi at goal pace) and 22mi long runs that left me beat up before race day. I think Daniels is a good plan to follow, especially for those putting out higher volume (85/mi week +), but for those doing 55-70/mi weeks like the OP and myself, I think you should scale back on his proposed workouts/long runs or you risk doing too high of a percentage of quality.

here's decent article looking at various approaches:

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/masterminding-the-marathon

I found this one pretty interesting.

http://fellrnr.com/wiki/A_Comparison_of_Marathon_Training_Plans

thanks Dave for the reply. Pfitzinger would have been a good training choice but a bad one in term of flexibility and training arrangement for me. I will use it surely in the future as I highly regard their program, and I see they will publish an updated version of Road Racing for Serious Runner next year - at least so they said on their Facebook page.

The Stone Cutter wrote:

Hey Stone Cutter, nice to meet you and thanks for you message.

Reading your post and getting more informations online about Hansons program I decided to get the book (I am in Italy - thanks to Amazon in 1 day I had it).

So, due to my actual family and work obligements, I was sold to the Hansons Advanced Program - at least I will try to follow it for a Marathon next Spring.

I like the idea of the first weeks with Speed as I come from some months of 5K-10K and I do not want to abandon it so suddenly. It also seems we have similar times (5K 17:37 - 10k 36:53 - HM 1:22:23)- I hope the Hansons method will work sub3 for me too, as I have read many good testimonials but mainly in the 3:30-4:30hrs range.

I am still not entirely bought to the idea of the long run of 16miles but getting into it, it just explains it must not be just *sixteen* but to keep in the 30% range. What did you do in this sense?

What did you find more difficult through the program?

I will have to rearrange the things a little bit as a family guy my standard *off* day will be Saturday...what would you suggest in this sense? (I think I will just move the Saturday easy run on Wednesday between SOS workouts).

What was you mileage peak? thanks

Well, my first two marathons were completed following a program base on an italian author called Albanesi, which is pretty hard to follow - and it is easy to get tired to the big day or even injured in the process. Sure, if you survive it, you will fell more sure about yourself.

Just to call for one of the hardest workout on Albanesi's program, he prescribe a 21.7 mile run a MP+12SEC/mile + 0.6 miles at MP -30sec/mile...

Cibrun wrote:

What was you mileage peak? thanks

I peaked at 75/mi week with a long run of 17 miles. Averaged 58/mi week for the entire 18 week cycle. I raced a 10k (36:42) and ran a HM at 90-95% effort (1:25:29) along the way. I didn't do any other races.

Personally, I felt like I got stronger as the cycle progressed. Same thing with the marathon. I felt lousy the first 5-6mi of the race, before finding my groove after 15mi. I also ran a negative split for the first time (1:28:14, 1:27:41).

I have stuck with the Hansons philosophy and I keep improving - ran a 1:19:57 HM this fall and I am hoping to run somewhere in the 2:47-2:50 for a marathon this spring. The key to me is not running ANY of the workouts faster than prescribed, which is a bad habit a lot of runners fall into. Also, run the easy days very easy - like 1:30-2:00 slower than marathon pace. It may feel really slow at first, but you'll stay healthy and strong that way.

Best of luck to you on your sub-3 goal.

You could try the Salazar Marathon Training Guide...Saw this on Facebook today...looks like he has a program out for Marathoners.

http://salazartraining.mantratechnology.com/

Should also mention the Beck (article in running times) program. I know that some people around here have had success and swear by this.

Thanks StoneCutter, that was sure interesting informations.I would like to know if you can email me the Excel spreadsheed (I searched for other threads about Hansons method and found you kept one) of the schedule for that marathon, I'd like to see which things you changed from the schedule proposed in the book.I have now started the program since a few weeks - just having completed week #5, and have the first doubts that are arising.As you may remember I have run last spring a 1:22 HM with poor pacing (first 5miles at 6:03) and a 17:40 5k last September. I have then kept doing 5k-10k workouts before deciding going back to the Marathon with the Hansons method (planning 70peak).Looking at the book Race Equivalency Chart, that translates in something like a 2:53 time (McMillan Pace calculator do the same).However, running at 6:36 for 26.2 miles seems impossible for me now, at perceived effort.TEMPO WORKOUTS: INTENSITYSo, the first and biggest problem is about the Tempo (MP) workouts intensity: I ran the first and the second one at 6:36 but felt like it was a bit too fast for being marathon pace. The third tempos (schedule called for 6 miles, I ran 7.5 miles) was then ran a little slower, at 6:40. I completed with no problem, but still felt the workout as tough - maybe because I had a bad week and had to do many workouts in a few days to recover lost time.How did you do to adjust the tempos intensity to your feel/objective?TEMPO WORKOUTS: LENGTHReading the schedule I think a lot of MP workout are good, but stopping at 10 miles seems too little, or I am wrong?Many programs go at about 15miles at MP or at least a HM test at MP...stopping a 10 miles won't be a confidence killer? So I was thinking about getting to the longest MP workout being 13miles (after having found the right intensity, of course). Any suggestions, experience on this idea?SPEED:I have found the speed workouts - ran on the track mainly - increasingly difficult, as the pace remains the same for 400-1200 distance while the recovery remains the same. Watching back the logged times, I ran the a litte faster (at 17:30 5k pace) - and will have to watch out better for this. How did you find the first weeks and watching back, did you pace them correctly?LONG RUN:A 16 miler for a marathon is still, in my mind - an act of faith. I will have to tweak it a little - running it at 7:15 pace I will run 2:10 for a 18miler which I think could be acceptable for their philosophy under a 70mile peak.I see you ran a 18miler also, going back would you go beyond that or not with my scheduled mileage?thanks a lot for the help!

If you have doubts about using Hansons for a Sub3 attempt, read this article:

http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/new-year-new-you-way-renegades

I dont understand people's resistance to the Hanson method. If you know you can do your 16, dont you finish feeling like you can roll the rest?

I've never thought that you had to finish a session feeling like you were hit by a bus in order to gain any benefit.

Every runner is an "experiment of one" and therefore responds differently to different programs. If Hanson (or Pfitzinger or anything else) works for you, that's great. But it is ridiculous to suggest that it's the best program for every runner. There is no such thing.

zohan wrote:

I dont understand people's resistance to the Hanson method. If you know you can do your 16, dont you finish feeling like you can roll the rest?

I've never thought that you had to finish a session feeling like you were hit by a bus in order to gain any benefit.

I think people get too caught up in following the programs to the letter. My experience is once you get going, it's not hard to bump up from 16 to 18. Then from 18 to 20. Once you get a few of these in, you end up being able to recover well enough for a Tues or workout.

I've morphed a few different programs together with success. I do a Tues workout with longer repeats at HM to MP pace (eg. 3*3 miles etc.). Then on Thu/Fri I do 8-10 miles at a little slower than MP. I think those are similar to Hansons(?) But then I build up and do the 20 miler on Sunday. Again, it's not that hard to do if you are running 55 to 70 miles per week.

zohan wrote:

I dont understand people's resistance to the Hanson method.

I know many runners who have had tremendous success with the Hansons method. I don't think it would work for me though. Due to job/travel ("real life") getting in the way, I don't think the concept of accumulated fatigue would work in my case.

While we're at it: for average Joe (like me), I now believe that 3 workouts per week is pushing it a bit too much. I have had great success with two:

Week 1:

THU Tempo run HM pace (progressing from 3 to 7 miles throughout the program)

SUN Long Run (progressing from 12 to 21 miles throughout the program)

Week 2:

THU Tempo run M pace (progressing from 5 to 10 miles throughout the program)

SUN Long Run with last miles at MP (progressing from 8+2 to 10+8 throughout the program)

The rest would be easy runs.

Add in some deload weeks.

Of course you should have a base for it and some intervals "in the bank".