If you are inefficient for 6.2 miles it does matter.
If you are inefficient for 6.2 miles it does matter.
Salazar anyone? wrote:
If you are inefficient for 6.2 miles it does matter.
What's "efficient?" Show me the O2 consumption data.
Being efficient isn't the same thing as being pretty.
being efficient means not wasting a lot of energy (oxygen) with excess motion. her vo2 data won't tell you that. i can't believe she's not perpetually hurt with such horrible form.
Seriously, what's wrong with the upper bodies of Japanese long distance runners?
Go the their National Training Center in Tokyo sometime and check out the equipment they have for analyzing biomechanics. Then get back to us.
obummer wrote:
being efficient means not wasting a lot of energy (oxygen) with excess motion. her vo2 data won't tell you that. i can't believe she's not perpetually hurt with such horrible form.
"O2 consumption" does mean oxygen consumption, which means the same thing as VO2 (volume of oxygen -- not to be confused with max VO2). That's exactly what you'd need to measure in order to determine efficiency: how much oxygen is a runner consuming at a given pace.
Horrible form? I think she's probably extremely efficient. Her stride is quick and light, and she's in perfect balance. Her quick turnover gives her very good energy return from eccentric contraction, so she wastes little on concentric contraction. There's little flexion of her ankles, knees, and hips during the stance phase. It's pop, pop, pop . . . .
She makes Flanagan look like a heavy plodder, but Flanagan's mechanics were better when Cook was her coach than they are now. That's probably why she's now having trouble breaking 31:00. Cook had her down to 30:20-something relatively quickly.
The Japanese care more about their national pride than doping
Nattering Nabob wrote:
obummer wrote:being efficient means not wasting a lot of energy (oxygen) with excess motion. her vo2 data won't tell you that. i can't believe she's not perpetually hurt with such horrible form.
"O2 consumption" does mean oxygen consumption, which means the same thing as VO2 (volume of oxygen -- not to be confused with max VO2). That's exactly what you'd need to measure in order to determine efficiency: how much oxygen is a runner consuming at a given pace.
Horrible form? I think she's probably extremely efficient. Her stride is quick and light, and she's in perfect balance. Her quick turnover gives her very good energy return from eccentric contraction, so she wastes little on concentric contraction. There's little flexion of her ankles, knees, and hips during the stance phase. It's pop, pop, pop . . . .
She makes Flanagan look like a heavy plodder, but Flanagan's mechanics were better when Cook was her coach than they are now. That's probably why she's now having trouble breaking 31:00. Cook had her down to 30:20-something relatively quickly.
yes. horrible form. did you even watch the race? using quick strides isn't efficient if you have an enormous amount of excess motion (particularly horizontal motion). you are the same person who first thought that vo2 data indicates efficiency. now your second stab is claiming that quickness indicates efficiency. give it a rest because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. perhaps do a little bit of research before posting again? she had HORRIBLE form and no doubt would be faster if she cleaned up some of her wasted motion.
Form is good for 40 seconds over 10k?
This is what happens when your grandparent grew up pulling rickshaws in Yokohama to help put food on the table. The science of epigenetics tells us that the effects of the rickshaw on the form of the grandparents can get transmitted (echoed) down to the grandchildren.
Her form is great for what it is: very little wasted energy, good turnover, very efficient. She'll be a great marathoner.
She won't win a major track event, though. The way she runs makes kicking really difficult -- this may not make a lot of sense, but her stride looks like "lifting" her legs, too far back on the heels.
also, there is quite a bit of japanese culture involved - japanese women don't have the "killer instinct". out kicking someone in a race in the last 400m isn't something that you are going to see. out running someone over the course of a race is something subtle, but completely different.
The Japanese woman was most likely the fastest clean athlete in the race.
It could be that she lost because she has no speed. She is a sandwich away from starvation and her strength levels have to be terrible. You could tell by her gait that she was doomed once the "sprinters" decided to take her. Biomechanics had very little to do with what happened.
From ExploringTokyo.com
Japanese women:
A noticeable inability to stick up for themselves and speak their mind should they perceive something is wrong or disagree, and instead just keep quiet and ‘suffer’ through whatever it may be – this is their way.
This is noticeable in the society in general, when a Japanese is faced with opposition he or she will not seek to get his way and instead yield to the antagonist.
This can translate to a girl noticing that her boyfriend may be cheating on her, but she does not confront him, and instead tries to be a better girlfriend.
Also this can be seen in a social circle where a Japanese woman or girl is subject to bullying or unfair treatment. Her response to said treatment is to look within herself to find out what she is doing that is wrong, and seek to be kinder and a better person even if there was nothing that she did to precipitate the circumstance to begin with!
Their typical response to a bulling would be: “I don’t know what I did wrong to upset you, but I am sorry and I will do my best to be better”. And to repeat as above, they will say this even if they are in no wrong.
Of course there is always a breaking point at which so much injustice has been served to the person that they will fight back. Every person has their different threshold. Those of the West’s are markedly lower.
This propitiation is common but not always the response. Of course there are many ways to respond to conflict or threat, and the Japanese do indeed respond in just as many ways as those of the West, however there is an observable response of propitiation. It is known as the ‘stoic’ characteristic of the Japanese.
Kindness
Japanese women and girls are tremendously kind, even to a fault. Whether this is the genesis of their propitiative response to conflict is besides the point (it most likely isn’t the source as logically, a positive thing like kindness could not be the source of something negative such as propitiation). Also, it is highly unlikely that they are being kind out of fear, so do not err in that supposition.
Their kindness presents its self in such things as offering to pay for the other party. Bringing treats or snacks to friends, whether male or female. Courteous behavior; smiling, being interested, not saying rude things, friendly demeanor.
I don't think it has anything in particular to do with Niiya being a woman or with mechanics. Japanese men and women tend to be grinders not kickers and put a high emphasis on high miles and an ability to run through pain and exhaustion.
Her strategy was the same one Shalane tried, which was to grind it out and keep the pace honest because they knew she couldn't kick with Dibaba and the east Africans.
As for form, you can't just look at someone, decide their form isn't aesthetically pleasing, and judge that they could make their form more economical. Physiology largely dictates each person's most efficient form. If Niiya doesn't do any resistance work or speed work, perhaps her form could improve, but I would expect that as many miles as she must have put in, she's probably close to as efficient as her body is capable of being. Trying to run with different form could never turn her into Dibaba.
rewq wrote:
I don't think it has anything in particular to do with Niiya being a woman or with mechanics. Japanese men and women tend to be grinders not kickers and put a high emphasis on high miles and an ability to run through pain and exhaustion.
Her strategy was the same one Shalane tried, which was to grind it out and keep the pace honest because they knew she couldn't kick with Dibaba and the east Africans.
As for form, you can't just look at someone, decide their form isn't aesthetically pleasing, and judge that they could make their form more economical. Physiology largely dictates each person's most efficient form. If Niiya doesn't do any resistance work or speed work, perhaps her form could improve, but I would expect that as many miles as she must have put in, she's probably close to as efficient as her body is capable of being. Trying to run with different form could never turn her into Dibaba.
that's a total straw man argument. nobody is saying that all she has to do fix her form and, boom, she is with dibaba. however, if she had better form, she certainly wouldn't have gotten dropped with 500 to go like she was standing still by not just dibaba but 3 other women.
Evaluating runners by their "biomechanics" is kind of like evaluating scientists by phrenology (relating intelligence to the location of bumps on the cranium). Don't you think biomechanics adapt to a runner's physiology and racing style? Perhaps short jerky motions and having an emaciated body are the only way she can hang with the East Africans for 9600 meters. There were plenty of runners out there with good "biomechanics" who didn't come close to what the Japanese woman accomplished.
obummer wrote:
that's a total straw man argument. nobody is saying that all she has to do fix her form and, boom, she is with dibaba. however, if she had better form, she certainly wouldn't have gotten dropped with 500 to go like she was standing still by not just dibaba but 3 other women.
are you this stupid all the time or are you just having a particularly bad day?
re-read the thread title. ok, maybe you somehow can't locate it, so here you go:
"If the Japanese gave a $hit about bio-mechanics they would be unbeatable in 10k "
What does "giving a $hit about bio-mechanics" mean to you? Something akin to "fix(ing) her form" ?? what does " unbeatable" mean to you? something like keeping up "with Dibaba"??
but hey, you got say "that's a total straw man argument", so you felt you made a good point no matter what you wrote after that, huh? READ and THINK before you open your mouth or bang on you keyboard.
Ummm, ever heard of Jordan Hasay??
Gay Marxist wrote:
The Japanese woman was most likely the fastest clean athlete in the race.