400/800m training or pure 800m training?

IMO opinion this athlete has good speed but pretty poor endurance. i guess i'd call them a 400/800 type.

i only ran 25 and 55 in 200/400 time trials last track season, but raced 1:57 for 800. why? because i also was running 4:20 for the mile and 15:20 for 5K on the roads.

IMO it would be much more likely that such an athlete could make significant gains in their endurance as opposed to huge speed gains. i would touch on speed often in training, but really strive to improve endurance. 3-4 mile tempos @ 5:15-5:25 pace, 10-12 mile long runs at 6:30, 6-8 x 1K @ 5K pace...if you trained this athlete to do workouts like these, it would really help them improve in the 1500 and thus the 800. (the 400 will come down too with additional strength work).

But isn't it so that the 400m/800m type usually responds not that good to endurance training (tempos, long intervalls) than the 800/1500m type.

According to IAAF scoring tables, 51.0 and 1:58 are both about 818 points, so this athlete is equally good at 400 and 800. You are correct that the 400/800 type does not respond as well to endurance training as the 8001500 type.

One approach would be the way Fiasconaro (first guy under 1:44) trained. Here Renato talks about Fiasconaro and the 400-800 athletes;

I had a personal experience with Marcello Fiasconaro. In 1971-73, I was the assistant coach of the Italian responsible for 400m / 400 hs / 4x400 (Salvatore Morale, in 1962 winning European Championships in 400 hs with the WR of 49"2, and in 1964 bronze in Olympic Games), and I was the first working in Italy with Marcello, coming from South Africa. He came Italy on 28th June 1971 with a PB in 400m of 45"9 (Italian Record) in South Africa, and ran his first Italian competition winning, on 1st July, his 400m during the meeting "Notturna di Milano" (in the same occasion, Marty Liquori beated Franco Arese in the fastest 1500m of the year, 3'36" vs 3'36"3). After few days (we had a training camp in Viareggio) we had a match against Cuba, and he ran 400m against a new Cuban (Alberto Juantorena, very young and in Europe for the first time). Marcello bettered the Italian Record with 45"7.

Morale sent me as responsible for a period of 2 weeks in altitude (Abetone, 1800m) without any track, with the athletes of the relay. One day, I went running 30' fast with March (nobody of the other 400m runners in Italy was able to stay with me) and he was very comfortable with my pace. I remember I told him "you must try 800m, you can become the European Record Holder", and he told me "I never want run 800m, are too long".

In European Champs (Helsinki) March won the silver medal in 45"49 (NR) behind Dave Jenkins, and in the relay Italy won bronze medal for the first time in its history.

In 1972 March had a stress fracture in the navicular bone of his left foot, and in OG he couldn't run. This happened because of the first syntetic tracks, so at the end of September he went to Johannesburg, and in December started training on grass under the programs of Stewart Banner,a coach owner of a chain of restaurants.

Increasing his long run till one hour 3 times per week, and using long intervals (400-600m) during the other days, he bettered 3 times the Italian Record of 800m (1'45"7 / 1'45"2 / 1'44"7) in epic duels against Malan and Botha. He came to Italy at the end of March.

I organised for him in Turin morning training sessions on the Golf Field in La Mandria, and March went there 5 times per week, running every day 10 km between 35' at the beginning of the period and 33' at the end of May. On the track, his program was very easy : twice per week (Tuesday and Friday) alternating this type of workouts :

a) 10x150m in 18" with 2' recovery

b) 6x300m in 36" / 36"5 with 6' recovery

c) 3x600m in 1'21" / 1'19" with 8' recovery

d) 6x150m in 16"5 with 5' recovery

e) 3x300m in 33"5 / 34"5 with 8' recovery

I remember that the week of the WR (he ran 1'43"7 in front from the first meter with splits of 50"1 / 1'16"5) he ran, 5 days before, on the track (earth) of the Club Fiat, 3 times 600m in 1'18"7 / 1'19"2 / 1'18"8 with recovery of 8' between the first 2, and 10' between the second and the third. I remember also that after the second he was very tired, so I advised him to run slowly (about 1'23"), and I asked to another runner with a PB of 1'51" to pace him for the last 300m in 41". But this athlete, fearing to run too slow, started when March was still 15 meters before the line of 300m (he ran the first 300m in 42"), running very fast. March, that didn't want to lose also in training, started to increase his speed, and overtook the other athlete with 10 meters to go, running the second 300m in 36"8 !

So, we must to establish some things :

1) What does it mean "HIGH MILEAGE" ? Because it seems that, when you speak about 100 miles per week, this is a very high mileage. For me, it's a normal mileage for a specialist of 800m of the second type, and in any case NOBODY runs 800m fast with less than 70 miles per week, if we consider ALL the miles they run. For example, I followed PERSONALLY in the Winter of 1986 Seb Coe (in Tirrenia, Italian Olympic Venue for middle distances) when he ran 30 km at 3'22" pace (1 hr 40') on the road, with the car of the Center, so IT'S NOT TRUE HE DIDN'T GO FOR LONG RUN. However, the big difference between the Lydiard system and the Peter Coe system was that, ALREADY IN WINTER, Sebastian used high speed, going for a competition/test every year in Loghborough at the end of April of 800m (if I well remember, his best was 1'44" alone), running also a 3000m indoor (his best around 7'51").

2) What does it mean "TO INCREASE THE VOLUME OF THE INTENSITY" ? It means to put in training some test longer than before at the same intensity, and to run more tests at an intensity a little lower, but reducing the recovery time. For example, if Billy Konchellah used 3x300m in 34" with 10' recovery when ran 400m, when he moved to 800m he started to use 600m (twice) in 1'21" with 10', and 6x300 in 36" with 5', DEPENDING ON HIS LACTIC POWER LEVEL. More than before, but very far from the volume, the speed and the recovery of, for example, 10x300m in 39" with 30"/40" recovery, workout used by Steve Cram, depending on his AEROBIC POWER LEVEL.

3) What does it mean "TO INCREASE THE INTENSITY OF THE VOLUME" ? It means to try to run faster in the tests normally used, and to put some shorter distance in order to increase the speed. Sebastian Coe while junior ran 1500m in European Junior Champs, Steve Cram in 1979 won 3000m, Andrè Bucher beated the Swiss Junior Record of 10000m in 30'10" and ran steeple, Olga Kazankina beated the WR of 3000m.

4) Which is the function of long and slow run for the 800m runner of type a) (coming from 400m) ? It's to enhance the "general efficiency" in order to train better in the "specific area". So, it's clear that doesn't have any DIRECT INTERVENTION in the performance, but can be considered "TRAINIG for TRAINING".

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So the 10K on the grass in 33 to 35 minutes might be in the McMillan steady state or tempo range for Fiasconaro. Hard to know without knowing Fiasconaro's PR for 5000 or any distances longer than 800.

Besides the 5 workouts listed, a 400-800 type should also do some longer intervals and tempo runs, but not as much volume or duration as a 1500-800 type.

Hope this helps.

i ran on a D3 team with 5 guys running between 149-152 in the 800. 3 guys were 4/8 types, and 2 were 1500 guys (349 and 351 prs). all ran XC in the fall (anywhere from 50-80 mpw at peak volume), and all did just as many tempos in training throughout the year as the distance guys. of course, the volume and intensity of the tempo work they did was less than that of pure 1500/5K/10K guys. so it's not that they didn't respond to that type of training, you just had to give them the right 'dosage' to get a response without killing them. the 4/8 guys absolutely DREADED 3-4 mile tempo runs...but they knew that's what gave them the strength to run a 150-low for 800m.

800m runner wrote:

But isn't it so that the 400m/800m type usually responds not that good to endurance training (tempos, long intervalls) than the 800/1500m type.

Thanks, any examples of training sessions in base and peaking for a 400/800m

a take wrote:

i would touch on speed often in training,

10-12 mile long runs at 6:30,

3-4 mile tempos @ 5:15-5:25 pace,

6-8 x 1K @ 5K pace...

Here's your classic distance runner's approach to training. I have selected these quotes.

However, training a runner is not a one size fits all situation. Different people respond to different training.

Certainly, that 1500 time is poor off that 800 time, so improvements need to be made in the athlete's aerobic fitness. But how to do it?

At 24.0, I don't think the speed's that great, which I think limits the possibilites over 400. That first point, about "touching on speed", is for me a fallacy. If you're going to run 400s, you need to be bloody fast. This is not reached by the distance runner's approach of chucking in a few faster strides after a long tempo run. It's done by specific sprint sessions, and IMO once a week. It's a hard CNS session, meaning no hard days either side. Explain to me how anyone can run their best at 400 without working on top speed?

Next - explain to me how running a 75 minute long run, that's 12 miles at 6:30 per mile, directly helps a 400 runner? Or even an 800 runner? What if the runner hates these? Tell them they need them, and it will toughen them up? Toughen them up for what - cross country? Relevance?

As for the hard 20-25 min tempo run - IMO this has more direct benefit to an 800, running harder for a shorter period. Remember, it's still running for 10-12 times as long as an 800 race, limiting the benefit.

The 1kms @ 5km pace with 1 min rest - now you're getting to some much more relevant aerobic fitness. These, and structured fartleks and vVo2max sessions are where an 800 runner gets more specific and useful aerobic fitness.

Try something like these sessions once a week in base

1. Strength - can't run fast without strength. Don't do a hard running session the following day. However I think a hard strength session can follow an aerobic session the day before.

2. Top speed - get the athlete as fast as possible. Heaps of sprint drills, some plyos, and flying top speed 20s, 30s and 40s. 50s from standing starts.

3. vVo2max/fartlek - something like 8 x 2 mins hard 1 min easy. Alternatively, 6-7 x 2 mins @ 2-3km speed, with 2 mins recovery running at 60% of that speed. Vary the 2 mins between 1 and 3 (eg 90secs), but always running the hard bit at 2-3km speed and the easy bit for the same time at 60% of that speed, and always total of 12-15 mins of hard running and the same recovery.

4. That 6-8x1km on 1 min recovery, this can replace the long run. Seriously, what's going to help an 800 runner more? 75 mins at a slow slog (6:30-7 mins per mile), hating it and getting sore, or 5-8 x 3 mins at or marginally below lactic threshold level, with a good, crisp stride, getting puffed/winded on each one? What helps an 800 runner mroe, esp a 400/800 runner? Otherwise make it a 10 min WU and CD, and in between 5-6 x 5 mins with short recovery, all at 5km speed or marginally slower.

Chuck in a couple of easy recovery runs a week, good eating esp after a workout, heaps of stretching, and injury prevention/management (work on your problem areas). I just can't agree that a speed animal should be slogging their guts out with a long slow run every week.

Getting into a comp phase, keep doing no.4 once a week to retain your aerobic fitness, make 3 more of a 1500 session, and throw in the 400/800 speed endurance sessions, gradually getting rid of the strength training as you get closer to your season peaks. Keep the top speed going when needed too, even by running some 100 or 200 races.

All 800 meter runners should train as sprinters.

800m runner wrote:

Thanks, any examples of training sessions in base and peaking for a 400/800m

I can suggest some specific 800 or 400 sessions if you want, or even 400/800 combined sessions. I'm sure others can too.

In the 800 you could start one week with 2 x 4 or 3 x 3 x 300s, about 1 min jog 100 recovery, 5 mins rest between sets. The next week 2 x 2 x 400 (2 and 5 min recoveries) and the next week 3 x 500s, 8-10 min recoveries. All at 800 speed or even marginally faster.

Bascially reps of 300-500m, at race pace focusing on running fast relaxed, try it with different rests, see what they can handle.

400 - there's only really two sessions I'd suggest - one is 5-7 x 100 @ 400 speed with 20-30 secs rest, but working your way round the track and working on your race at that point of the track. So first one might be 0-100m, then 50-150 m, then the back straight etc. You finish each 100, jog back 50m, and go again.

The other one is 3 x 300s, 400 race pace if you can, 8-10 min recoveries. Do the first one 0-300m, the last one 100-400m, and whatever you like for the 2nd.

You can do some 150s at close to 200 speed too, walk back so about 2-3 min recoveries.

A combined session could be 500s, which would be 250m @ 800 speed, 100 float, then 150m @ 400 speed. Rest is between 4 and 8 mins, depending on how they recover. I guess do 3 or 4, but see how they cope. It's also a good session if there's a strong wind, as they can recover into the wind.

This part's easy. I think getting the strength, speed and the right type of aerobic fitness in base is more important. Once your strength, speed and fitness are in place, the rest is just refining it with anaerobic work.

600m repeats, average it out

800m runner wrote:

Would you consider an athlete a 400m/800m type or pure 800m type with pbs: 200: 24.00 400:51.0 800m. 1.58. 1500m: 4.25.

Would it be better to train that athlete with a 400/800m program? A pure 800m program? or 800/1500m program?

800 meter with poor endurance, presumably, unless he already has a fairly sizable base.

Thanks a lot for your info Karma Police. I just wonder, do you have any coaching experience? Or is this something u only teoretically know?

Karma police, what do u think about a weekly setup like this for the mentioned athlete?

m:6x1k. 1.30 min rest

t:45easy

w:Short hill sprint/100s at 90%/60ms +plyos

t:45e

f:8x600m 2 min rec. alternating 13x300m 1.30 min rec

s:1h easy

s:45e

800m runner wrote:

Thanks a lot for your info Karma Police. I just wonder, do you have any coaching experience? Or is this something u only teoretically know?

He he, nice question. Answer is a bit of both. I know for one athlete I train who is a younger 400/800 runner, what I've said works. For other athletes, more mileage can work. I know another athlete of similar age who does well over 800 off more mileage. but I reckon he could do better with what I've suggested. However, he's moved more into 1500 than 800, and that changes the game.

I also read up a lot about 400/800 training.

It depends a bit on how old the athlete is. It depends on what their strengths and weaknesses are. It depends on their build and their stride. It depends what injuries they suffer from. And - and I'll bet no one else has suggested this - it depends a bit on what they like doing. You want them to keep coming back. That's a longer term approach.

In terms of speedwork, I just can't see how a 400/800 runner can get away with not working on it. It doesn't make sense.

And here's another thing to think about - the faster your 400 is, the easier your first lap feels. For example, a 58 first lap will feel a lot easier for someone with a 400 PR of 51 than it will for someone with a PR of 54.

800m runner wrote:

Karma police, what do u think about a weekly setup like this for the mentioned athlete?

m:6x1k. 1.30 min rest

t:45easy

w:Short hill sprint/100s at 90%/60ms +plyos

t:45e

f:8x600m 2 min rec. alternating 13x300m 1.30 min rec

s:1h easy

s:45e

How old? What time of the year - base? How much running have they done before? What are they doing now?

What you've got is this

Mon - longer aerobic, say 3-5 mile speed training

Tues - easy

Wed - shorter, fast (not short or fast enough IMO)

Thurs - long easy run - purpose? Recovery runs only need to be 25 mins

Fri - maybe 2km pace training. I'd make it close to a vVo2max training. This works. Read up on Veronique Billat

Sat - long easy run - purpose?

Sun - medium easy run

That's 3:15 of easy running a week. What about a day off? What about strength training? To me it's more of an 800/1500 program.

If you answer those questions, I'll tell you what I think. Then you can decide what to do. I do realise that my thinking is in the minority here, but I don't think too many of the mileage heads here really understand a srpint type of 800 runner.

Also read this article - I think it's good common sense stuff.

It has quotes like this:

"This group [sprinter type 800 runners] seldom if ever goes on a distance run. We do "steady state" runs by doing 1000-1200m cruise intervals with a 60 second rest(see Daniels). They absolutely hate these but you get so much more of this workout than you would by sending them out on the road"

"When planning your training, remember the theory of specificity"

This athlete is 30 years old. This is base training during the winter months. Athlete has run since his year of 16. Average around 60km per week. He has trained mostly like a 800/1500m runner during that time. One season when he switched to pure 400m training the athlete dropped from a 53sec 400m PB to a 51 sec 400m PB. So it seems like he respond well to especially speed endurance training.

He likes better to run speed endurance sessions and long intervals like 1km repeats rather than hard long tempo runs.But he dont dread it like a "pure" 400m runner would do. Tempos and long runs are ok, but this athelete doesent seem to get the best benefit from those.

When I coach someone I think that the easy recovery runs will

1. Recover the athlete better than taking a day off

2. Give some stimuli to more endurance and ability to handle and respond better to harder training.

What would you do instead of the easy recovery runs? Thats an interesting question! I think that the recovery runs is for making the athlete recover as best as possible while still doing some spesific training (runner)

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