Why do I suck in the marathon?

150 km/wk will probably help you a lot, as 110 isnt much for a marathon. i would recommend just 130 km or 80 mpw.

also, you should change up your workouts more. do more fast long runs, longer tempos. more like 20-25k at marathon pace or 15-20k a tiny bit faster, 5:50s/mi.

also if you ran 73 for a half off of a 16:30, then you could probably run 15:40s. 16:30 should be a walk in the park

Your tempos are too short, your long run is probably about right, but your training volume per week is too low.

I'm going to be referring to things mostly in terms of miles, so if you're Canadian or European or whatever and prefer kilometers just make the ccnversion.

I'm a big fan of the American marathoners of the 1970s and early 1980s. One year in the 70s the US had about 250 sub 220 marathoners to attest to its depth in the sport, then in 2006 it only had 23, I'm pretty sure it still has less than 100 sub 220 marathoners a year now. Also, when you factor in things like lack of pacing and support at the time (running wasn't a professional sport yet), as well as the top guys running in competitive races and going for the win rather than a fast time, guys like Frank Shorter and Bill Rodgers easily could have run around 206-207 if they ran today.

So why has the US disappeared in the marathon so to speak? The answer is that our mindset is different. First off, mentally we never even give ourselves a chance because we mentally give the win to one of the Kenyans. Secondly, we're over-thinking things. The Kenyans are still training like our 1970s runners both on the track and in the marathon. In America we over analyze it and think that everything in training has to be scientifically backed, we're afraid to push the envelope.

The truth of the matter, is that with a 1970s training mindset you may not reach that 100% of your ability due to the lack of science, but when you train that hard its impossible to not be an extremely good runner around 95-99% of your potential. So in the 1970s when every serious runner is running 140-150 miles a week with the "lazy" ones "only" doing 120 miles a week, of course they're going to be pretty good.

Considering this, I recommend a 1970s style training approach. In the 1970s everyone trained high mileage and worked extremely hard. On the track this would mean ridiculous track workouts like Jim Ryun's 40 400s or 18 800s workouts in HS, while doing 100 miles a week. In the marathon this means 20 miles a day 7 days a week, doing doubles Monday through Saturday and a 20 mile long run on Sunday.

I recently decided to stop being lazy and am doing 16-18 miles a day and here is my training schedule following the 1970s mindset:

M- 12 miles AM / 6 miles and 10 strides PM

T- speed workout with 6-10 miles of fast running volume at 20-30 sec faster per mile than marathon pace in AM / 6 miles and core work PM

W- same as Monday

T- continuous(one run) tempo on the track of 16-20km (long tempos on the track make you mentally tough) in AM / 6 miles and core work PM

F- 12 miles AM / 6 miles and core work PM

S- same as Friday

S- 2-2.5 hour long run (I'd recommend only 2 hours until 2 months away from the marathon then go longer peaking at 2 and a half hours before the taper)

Follow a plan like that and you'll be golden. In a couple years probably even sub 230 marathon. I think anyone can run sub 230 regardless of talent with enough hard work.

Great Post.

Your mileage is certainly enough to run faster than 2,46.

Is your long run too slow? Renato Canova and Pete Pfitzinger says you shouldn´t run slower than 80% of planned marathon pace during marathon preparation. You should also incorporate some faster running during your long runs every now and then.

I did this mistake when building up for a marathon. I thought I could fart around at any pace during my long runs as long as they were - long.

Another thing to check out is the taper. Do you taper too little - or too much? This is very individual and has to be found out by trial and error. It is very inportant to cut down on the volume of hard running during the last few weeks.

You don´t run really big mileage, so I don´t think you should cut back to much on the miles the last few weeks before the race (but, again, this is individual).

A big no-no is to suddenly start doing short, intense intervals during the last weeks to "sharpen". A marathon is not a 1500m race.

Do you train on terrain than mimics the course? If you´re going to run a hilly marathon you need to do your tempos and long runs over hilly terrain.

Did you taper a lot before your HM race or did it make you so tired you had to cut down on traing 1-2 weeks afterwards?

Buildup races must not interfere with marathon training.

This is stupid advice. We are not talking about a guy looking for a breakthrough on the elite scene - we are talking about a bloody 2,46 marathoner and you are telling him to train like world class runners. What he needs is balance, moderation and a long-term approach - not suddenly jumping into a training plan that he will be unable to handle

huh!? wrote:

Your mileage is certainly enough to run faster than 2,46.

Is your long run too slow? Renato Canova and Pete Pfitzinger says you shouldn´t run slower than 80% of planned marathon pace during marathon preparation.

I know Canova says that running slower than 80% of MP provides almost no benefit, but I think if you look at his workouts, he actually prescribes nothing slower than 90% of MP. 80% is simply presented as the far boundary.

That said, it assumes we're dealing with someone who is pretty much fully developed aerobically, which I doubt this guy is based on his mileage.

Do not have enough information to understand if the problem is just your training, or also your racing.

What did your splits look like in the 2:46? How about the race you hit 1:19 for half? Are you running even 6:0x miles to 1:19, or are you hitting faster miles early and slowing down already by the half?

Also, two months is not very long for a recovery/training/taper cycle after totally thrashing your legs.

Some tweaks to your training will probably help, but you also need to figure out how to still be running on pace at the end of the race, and how that feels in the first 18 miles. Better to underperform by feeling like you could have gone faster than to underperform by cratering or DNFing.

I trained and raced in that era. I was under 33 for 10k, under 16 for 5k and broke 26 minutes for 5 miles several times. I ran around 65-75 mpw. The longer the race was, the more I dropped off in equivalent performance and I had to finally accept the fact that if I wanted run well in the longer races like the half and the marathon, I would have to raise my miles to 85-90 mpw. I chose not to and focused on shorter races ( 10k and below ).

Ran 16:29, 34:04, 2:38:24

Training

Monday - off

Tuesday AM - easy 4-6 miles

PM - speed work on track or road 10 miles including

w-u & c-d

Wednesday 10-15 miles as you feel

Thursday - off

Friday easy 4-6 miles

Saturday Race, time trial or tempo run

Sunday Long run 18-22 miles

Total miles 60-70 (5 days [6 work-outs])

Norge wrote:

Ran 16:30 in 5k and 33:20 in 10k (so not really a shorter distance wizard)

So, you're 10k averages back-to-back 16:40s but your 5k is a 16:30? Your 10k and half both point to

Agreed. If you can run 33:20, you should be able to run 16:00.

If you would like some strong advice training wise you might eabt to contact xccomingifages1983@yahoo.com those guys provide a program based on the individual and make sure that that is priority number 1

Jeez, the first step to you getting better is to have some goddamn confidence and self esteem. A 2:46 is not pitiful, nor is a 1:21, or 1:15. Come back with a positive attitude, then I'll help you.

I wouldn't say that sucks.

1. I had to do 85 MPW to SCRAPE a sub 3 by 20s. You've managed 2:46 on less than 70. (I did Daniels too (3 back-to-back cycles), not like I was messing about).

2. Your 2:26 was your half PB * 2 + 16 - so you aren't exactly over-achieving in the marathon but hardly a disaster either.

I suppose the DNFs are maybe tough to deal with. I'll leave the actual advice to other people (everything I've read would indicate more mileage but, yeah... didn't work for me)

Edit: 2:46 (not 2:26)

Because you have had the thought that you suck so many times that it formed an actual strong brain connection between marathons and failure. The human body runs off of how your programmed your brain. Your thoughts have programmed your brain for failure. Those thoughts then become strong beliefs which turn into habits. Habits determine a lot of success.

Why does a great athlete intially get better when salazar takes them on? Because the athlete thinks they will improve even before the first day of training. Those thoughts turn into belief and by the end of the first week the athlete EXPECTS to win their first race. The body operates on an elite level at this point.

definitely bump up the mileage. And the long run. You should cover the full marathon distance a few times in training.

Definitely scale way back from online running :)

Replace it with in-person, real time training. Get a little closer each time. Track it and your proximity.

this is an easy fix.

8 weeks out, replace your tempo day with a 15-20 km day and on your weekly long runs, practice finishing them at marathon pace. start slow, really slow, then get into a good cadence, the last 3-5 miles work on getting down to goal marathon pace. it teaches your body to run fast when you are fatigued.

it's not about your half PR's or your 5K PR's. be realistic about your marathon fitness (2:35) and start by hitting that time, then, build from there.

trust your progression.