Ryun wasn't on EPO like El G and the rest of the North and East Africans. That much we do know.
Ryun wasn't on EPO like El G and the rest of the North and East Africans. That much we do know.
Remember too that not all non-synthetic tracks were the same.
IIRC:
Ryun ran the first HS sub-4 mile on a clay track in Compton.
Ryun ran his HS best 3:55 on a Grass-Tex asphalt composite track in San Diego.
Ryun ran his HS 1500 best 3:39.0 on a torn-up cinder track in New Jersey.
Ryun ran his all-time best race 3:33.0 1500 on a dirt track in LA.
Some very different surfaces there.
His decline does coincide with the implementation of drug testing, though.
same distance anyway wrote:
Ryun trained on cinders, and ran faster on cinders than on rubberized tracks. Why wouldn't they be just as fast?
I'm pretty sure the mile at Berkeley was on a rubberized track, but don't know about the one at Bakersfield. In any case, he ran on rubberized tracks many times.
1,500 meters 3:33.1 July 8, 1967 Los Angeles, CA
One Mile 3:51.3 July 17, 1966 Berkeley, CA
One Mile 3:51.1 June 23, 1967 Bakersfield, CA
Have you never seen this book?
http://i65.tinypic.com/kaiayw.jpgKnick Aïch wrote:
You do realize that JR ran 3:33.1/3:51.1 on cinders or dirt ..? Some experts have speculated that 1.5% is the amount of time lost from the old tracks to the new modern carpets. That would change Ryun’s times to 3:29.9/3:47.7... probably drug free. Possibly GOAT.
I don't think there were big, sudden improvements in world records or standards generally once tartan and mondo became commonplace. Similarly with the introduction of lighter spikes and pacemakers. Each of these things helped, but not much.
Almost eight years after Jim Ryun's 3:51.1 (1967), Bayi shaved 0.1 seconds, then Walker ran 3:49.4. It was another four years until Coe ran half a second quicker. I think people were running on modern tracks by then, so why not bigger improvements in performance?
It seems the case of 800m and Snell's (1962) run on grass is similar. His 1:44.3 was approximately equalled by Doubell (1968) and Wottle (1972). Then Fiasconaro ran 1:43.7 in 1973 and Juantorena ran 1:43.5 then 1:43.4 in 1976 and 1977. So almost a second was knocked off in 15 years. Coe made a big improvement in 1979 and again in 1981, but had little competition (he didn't start running fast because tracks improved in these years).
Mandatory reading before junior high school.
I read mine in sixth grade. S'were the days.
Your post doesn't make much sense to me. There wasn't a sudden improvement to Ryun's record despite the introduction of modern tracks because Ryun's record was so good. At least that's what is being argued here. Jim Ryun had knocked over 2 seconds off the existing WR that had been set only the year before. To say that Bayi only shaved 0.1 seconds off it in 8 years doesn't prove that modern tracks aren't much better, or at least it doesn't disprove that Ryun's run was one of the greatest ever. Bayi was running nearly 4 seconds faster than Herb Elliott. Was he really a second lap faster than Elliott if they were in the same tracks and shoes?
Snell is considered by everybody to be in the GOAT discussion for 800m, so the fact that the two next greats only equalled it on better tracks shows what a stud he was, not that there was no difference between the tracks they ran on.
Would make more sense to compare middle-distance times from more 'ordinary' WR holders to judge if tracks made a difference. For example, John Walker ran nearly 10 seconds faster than John Landy only twenty years before. For point of reference, El G set his 3:43 WR that still stands twenty years ago. It's the equivalent of the WR for the Mile today being 3:33, ten seconds quicker than El G.
El G only improved on Walker's record by 6 seconds in twenty years, with all the benefits of EPO inside of him. In fact, many or most people here would claim that the clean WR for the Mile is probably Cram's or something like his time (ie 3:46) which is only three seconds faster than Walker's WR. So in forty years, the WR for the Mile has only improved three seconds without chemical means, and yet Walker's WR was nearly ten seconds faster than than the times of twenty years before him, and 17 seconds faster than the WR of forty years before him. I've never read of anyone even on this forum claiming that John Walker took PEDs. Obviously some of the time difference between him and earlier greats was due to better training, maybe more money coming into athletics and the gradual ending of the amateur era, but a large part of it must have been due to better tracks (as well as pacemakers and shoes).
The 800m WR progression is even more obviously influenced by tracks. Less than 7 years before Snell the WR was 1:45.7 and the record before that dated back to Rudolf Harbig in the 1930s! Yet Coe ran 1.41 less than 20 years later (and even for those who doubt Coe, Cruz got within 4/100ths of it just 3 years later). Until 1955 the WR was 1.46.6, yet by 1979 it was 1.42.3, over 4 seconds. Nearly 40 years later it's been improved by 1.4 seconds (or just 0.8 seconds from 1981 to today, and Rudisha has to be suspect like every Kenyan, unfortunately). Also, there was a lot of unusual bad luck regarding the top 800m runners of the early modern track era, which make Coe's times look even more like outliers. But a number of athletes were probably capable of sub 1:43 in the 70's and early 80s, from Wottle to Ivo Van Damme (if he had lived) and Steve Ovett. That's three seconds faster than the WR before Snell's 1:44 on grass.
Why are you even debating this at such length? Everyone reading this knows, that the WR is ~3.41. And for 1500, ~3.24. And for 800 ~1.39. Even for 400 ~44.0. You know. You ought to know. In fact, the BroJos ought to use these numbers as their pop quiz questions to validate bonafides to allow posting on LR, LLLOOOOL!!
So, by the same token, Coe 1.39.9. Snell 1.40.0, Juantorena 1,41.0. Rudisha 1.41.1 since his 1.40.91 was run with advantageous calm conditions, perfect temp ~22C and perfect pacing with strong competition from behind through 550 so he takes a ~0.1 sec deduction.
All the same I want vento to do some more work and ANALYZE RUDI HARBIG's 1.46.6 WR from 1939...... that ought to generate an interesting DVTT(tm)
If we apply vento's logic to its ultimate conclusion, my own 800PR from years ago ought to be ~1.44.8 or so (you know, with the ridiculous positive split pacing; bad track condition; gusting cross/headwinds on all turns; positioning in lane 2 for half the second lap; low ambient temp reducing muscle contraction limacons etc.)