Is Jim Ryuns mile the best ever? It was run on CINDERS!

grammarian wrote:

Bad Wigins wrote:

Tommie Smith ran 19.50 on cinder in 1966.

Can you document that? A relay leg?

Not a relay, out of blocks on a straight cinder track, hand-timed in San Jose, 7th May 1966.

Sagarin wrote:

Montesquieu wrote:

Was the 3:51.1 on cinders or clay? In any case, what I don't think anyone has mentioned is that he ran that all by himself: it was the age before rabbits.

It's been brought up before, if not on this thread. What Ryun did during his era is truly impressive, but I think you can only give him a second per lap with more even pacing and rabbits to take the field out. The track where he ran 3:51.1 wasn't "slow." Ryuns was probably worth a 3:47 and its metric equivalent back in the day (maybe a hair under 3:30 if he ran 3:33+), but the rest is sheer speculation. Still, very competitive with today's runners. I'm not sure I believe the 3:26/3:43 era of runners as legit.

I would agree with your estimates for Ryun - those are fair. And I am also doubtful about the legitimacy of the current records. One day I'm sure we will know more about that.

Ryun trained on cinders, and ran faster on cinders than on rubberized tracks. Why wouldn't they be just as fast?

I'm pretty sure the mile at Berkeley was on a rubberized track, but don't know about the one at Bakersfield. In any case, he ran on rubberized tracks many times.

1,500 meters 3:33.1 July 8, 1967 Los Angeles, CA

One Mile 3:51.3 July 17, 1966 Berkeley, CA

One Mile 3:51.1 June 23, 1967 Bakersfield, CA

same distance anyway wrote:

Ryun trained on cinders, and ran faster on cinders than on rubberized tracks. Why wouldn't they be just as fast?

I'm pretty sure the mile at Berkeley was on a rubberized track, but don't know about the one at Bakersfield. In any case, he ran on rubberized tracks many times.

1,500 meters 3:33.1 July 8, 1967 Los Angeles, CA

One Mile 3:51.3 July 17, 1966 Berkeley, CA

One Mile 3:51.1 June 23, 1967 Bakersfield, CA

Probably the most misinformed post of the thread. Essentially all of your information above is incorrect with the exception that Ryun did train on cinder tracks. He didn't run on rubberized tracks until '68. His WR were set on cinder tracks. By the time he raced on rubber, he was clearly on the downside of his career.

About ten years ago a meet in Europe brought back a bunch of all-time mile greats for a ceremony. Coe, Ovett, Aouita, Cram, Walker among them. When they introduced Jim Ryun he received an overwhelming applause from all them. That proves a lot to me, on how Jim Ryun's status as an all-time legend holds up with the men whose opinion should get the most respect.

3:51.1 in 1967 all-alone and goimg out in barely under 60 second through 1200. No one pulling him along at any point and on the slower tracks of the era.

It has to be assumed with one pacesetter taking him through 800 in 1:55 Ryun would have been able to run 3:48-49. Which was still a world record in 1980. And on the tracks of the 1980's I would bet would give him 2 more seconds.

Ryun was just as good as any miler that ever lived to this day in 1967 with the possible exception of Morceli and El Gerrouj.

Middle Distance Analyst wrote:

Probably the most misinformed post of the thread. Essentially all of your information above is incorrect with the exception that Ryun did train on cinder tracks. He didn't run on rubberized tracks until '68.

Hilarious. HAHAHAHA

San Diego 1965

Under the runners was an exceptionally fast track. Made of Grasstex, an asphalt composition material, it had been laid down in Balboa Stadium last September at a cost of $40,000.

J.R. wrote:

Middle Distance Analyst wrote:

Probably the most misinformed post of the thread. Essentially all of your information above is incorrect with the exception that Ryun did train on cinder tracks. He didn't run on rubberized tracks until '68.

Hilarious. HAHAHAHA

San Diego 1965

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-R97LShwA

Under the runners was an exceptionally fast track. Made of Grasstex, an asphalt composition material, it had been laid down in Balboa Stadium last September at a cost of $40,000.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1077392/2/index.htm

I ran on grasstex and they were hardly fast and hard as hell - like running on concrete. Not much better than cinders and a far cry from the modern rubberized tracks of today. Beleive me, there was nothing rubber about grasstex.

Sagarin wrote:

[quote]Montesquieu wrote:

I think you can only give him a second per lap with more even pacing and rabbits to take the field out.

Way too generous. If that's worth 1 second a lap, Filbert Bayi was a 3:28 man.

That was a quote from the article. SI thought grasstex was exceptionally fast, the way that you think rubber is fast.

My fastest 3 mile was on a dirt track, not even cinders, and I loved that track. Now everything is hard plastic tracks, hard on the legs, and no one can run on them anyway because there are 8 foot tall fences all around.

I miss the days of having convenient dirt tracks everywhere, being able to run miles and miles on them, with no problem at all. Idk if cinders were faster than dirt, but you needed to have good spikes on them or you'd slip. The track at WE was fast, but the same thing, needed spikes.

Interestingly, Ryun often ran his training in flats, on the cinders.

J.R. wrote:

Interestingly, Ryun often ran his training in flats, on the cinders.

That was common at that time to train in your training flats. We rarely, if ever, used our racing spikes during training sessions.

He would have been competitive and on the same level as Coe, Ovett, Cram, but I don't believe he was better or would have beaten them regularly.

As impressive as a solo 3:51 is,Coe's solo 3:31 1500 off an absurd 52.4 first lap is probably a better performance IMO.

He'd also have had a hard time with Coe and Ovett's kicks, which were as good as Ryun's. He wasn't as fast over 400 as Coe.

bellcheese wrote:

I think people are forgetting that Jim Ryun ran his mile ON CINDERS. Any time ran on cinders is superior to current times. IT WAS A CINDER TRACK PEOPLE. THAT MEANS THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME.

3:51 at age 19 on cinders when nobody else had ever broken 3:53 and clearly without the aid of performance enhancing drugs may be the greatest mile of all time

Brother Bob wrote:

3:51 at age 19 on cinders when nobody else had ever broken 3:53 and clearly without the aid of performance enhancing drugs may be the greatest mile of all time

Why 'clearly without the aid of performance enhancing drugs'?

Steroids were around and were legal then. No test for them until 70's.

His extremely inconsistent form could be result of peds.

Peer Mediator wrote:

He would have been competitive and on the same level as Coe, Ovett, Cram, but I don't believe he was better or would have beaten them regularly.

As impressive as a solo 3:51 is,Coe's solo 3:31 1500 off an absurd 52.4 first lap is probably a better performance IMO.

He'd also have had a hard time with Coe and Ovett's kicks, which were as good as Ryun's. He wasn't as fast over 400 as Coe.

laughable

Coe's solo 3:31 was a good performance and he was likely capable of 3:28 on the day with even pacing and rabbits to the bell, a time that would correspond with about a 3:45 mile.

It was in no way a superior performance to ryun's solo 3:51.1 on a cinder track torn apart from many races. It was one of the last races of the day at a US championship (think many heats & semis). He also had run a qualifying heat the day before.

He ran the fastest last lap ever in a mile world record race. He also had no pacers or competition.

And Ryun would have no trouble with anyone's kick.

see here -

another account found here -

a selection:

"Finally, in what was really a rehearsal for the Mexico Olympics 1,500, he and team-mate Tummler came up against Jim Ryun in a match with the USA. With all three having fast finishes, the last lap was expected to be exciting. Running as a team, the Germans tried to outfox Ryun. When Tummler took the lead at the bell, Norpoth, I second place, tried to make it difficult for Ryun to follow his team-mate. He forced the American to run really wide round the penultimate bend. But Ryun caught Tummler with 300 to go. The American’s last 300 left two of Europe’s finest finishers languishing far back. At the tape, Ryun (3:38.2) had taken four seconds out of Tummler (3:42.3) and Norpoth (3:42.5) with a last 300 of 36.4. In fact, Norpoth barely held off the second American, Grelle (3:42.8). It was a sobering end to the season."

Last lap of 49.4 seconds with a last 300 of 36.4 seconds. On a cinder track running wide on the first turn.

49.4 is pretty crazy, if true. That would probably be the fastest ever. Of course, it was hand timed, no? There was a thread on this a few years back:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3707182&page=0

No, Ryun's was not the fastest last lap in a mile WR.

In his 3:51.1 Ryan ran the last 440 in 53.7.

Cram ran his last lap in his WR in 53.2. That is in a 3:46.3, some 5 secs faster than Ryun's time.

That 49.4 last lap in Germany you/Ventolin keeps mentioning is not proven. It was widely quoted at the time in T&FN and AW as 50.6.

No proof at all that it was 49.4 except one German newspaper. No video footage in public domain to support minority claim either.

As a kid, I occasionally ran on the cinder Hayward track. It was much slower than contemporary tracks. On today's surfaces, he would have run significantly under 3:50. Having said that, I love the bite of cinder. It is comparable to playing tennis on clay instead of cement. It is also easier on the body.

Peer Mediator wrote:

No, Ryun's was not the fastest last lap in a mile WR.

In his 3:51.1 Ryan ran the last 440 in 53.7.

Cram ran his last lap in his WR in 53.2. That is in a 3:46.3, some 5 secs faster than Ryun's time.

That 49.4 last lap in Germany you/Ventolin keeps mentioning is not proven. It was widely quoted at the time in T&FN and AW as 50.6.

No proof at all that it was 49.4 except one German newspaper. No video footage in public domain to support minority claim either.

Jim's last lap was under 53 seconds

Additionally, it was run on cinders, a much slower surface than what Cram ran on in 1985.

Which also slowed down the overall time by a lot. Cram would be nowhere near 3:46 on cinders (let alone solo, no rabbits, day after qualifying heat)

The T&FN / AW source you cite isn't "proven" either. That 50.6 is from the same source not 2 independent sources. Same source reported in 2 different magazines.

The one I gave is from a former olympian written in the "Times" of germany. Jim's own recollection of the race is that he ran under 50 seconds. Which is consistent with the contemporary german account I listed.

Kip Keino has 2 Olympic gold medals and 2 silver.

How many does Ryun have?