EPO Does Work on Kenyans! Surprise!

Don't misunderstand me. I'm the first one to say don't jump to conclusions.I didn't realize that was the main point. By all means, look at the previous 25 years, and the next 13.I didn't say "indicative", but "proof". These graphs "prove" nothing. But they surely "indicate" something, that may or may not be doping: "for the top 20 athletes to all improve in a season is suggestive of a systemic change, possibly in training, possibly nutrition, possibly equipment ... possibly increased exposure of athletes... Or, quite possibly, doping,"The graphs come from the published paper "Performance Profiling: A Role for Sport Science in the Fight Against Doping?" Note this is proposed as a question, not the answer. These graphs are provided as examples to illustrate how the process might work.

GenericID wrote:

If the graphs aren't indicative of doping, how do they help with targeting testing?

I notice you've ignored the main point - taken over the entire history of athletics, the 25 year period of the graphs does NOT indicate doping, for two reasons:

1. The previous 25 years had larger drops in record times, and;

2. Records and average times have continued to fall despite the introduction of a reliable EPO test and the biological passport.

So, I ask again, what is the point of those graphs?

Net Filter

RE: EPO Does Work on Kenyans! Surprise! 6/2/2013 5:02PM - in reply to jfdaslj Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

President of the IAAF, Lamine Diack doesn't think there's a problem:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/may/31/athletics-doping-kenya-denial?INTCMP=SRCH

hmm looks like there's bit of disagreement between wada and the iaaf

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics/kenya-told-to-crack-down-on-doping-8616422.html

Net Filter wrote:

President of the IAAF, Lamine Diack doesn't think there's a problem:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/may/31/athletics-doping-kenya-denial?INTCMP=SRCH

classic interview, a real joyful source for those, who are in search of satiric stuff. kenya, one of the best controlled countries? compare it with this:

fake runner wrote:

Jeff Wigand wrote:

Yes, those in North Korea can live and train without fear of doping control. Probably the Pitcairn Islands, too.

highly agree, that´s also unacceptable and also the reason for continuous distrust. many countries have to be named (china...)!

jeff, with due respect: we shouldn´t sugarcoat the "control system". do you think things go well in kenya?

China's no problem whatsoever. Testers could go at the drop of a hat and be in China later today.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

China's no problem whatsoever. Testers could go at the drop of a hat and be in China later today.

oh jeah, and then, as a documentation from a german tv channel showed at the olympics 2008 for example, all the testers have to phone around for hours beginning at the airport, wait even more hours at the entrance door of a national training camp until their legitimation is checked, are told that nobody knows right now where the athlete mr x trains at the moment and, end of the story, after a long, long, long time of delaying tactics the sense of impromptu testing is lost. some testers were even not allowed to enter these camps.

jeff, what are you defending right now?

I would like to make it explicit that I have no particular horse in this race. I have no firsthand or secondhand experience with doping for endurance running.

Cabral has it right, though. Certain substances are banned essentially because there is a reasonable suspicion that they will increase performance. Not all substances on the banned list do in fact lead to increased performance in every athlete who takes them--but ALL athletes are banned from taking them, unless there is a TUE based on a demonstrated medical need.

Canova argues that his athletes are clean because to dope them would be useless anyway. Fair enough, UNLESS it can be shown either that individual athletes he coaches have historically impossible periods of performance (like Aries Merritt 2012) or set historically impossible records (like Marita Koch), or that his group of athletes sets historically impossible group performance benchmarks (like Ma's army)...or, of course, that one or more of his athletes tests positive.

Since I know about sprinting and not distance, I would appreciate it if someone would outline the issues in this last paragraph, in regard to Canova's athletes. Why in particular is there reason to suspect them?

Sprintgeezer, I don't say my athletes are clean BECAUSE doping is useless. I say my athletes are clean because our moral principle is to try the best possible with your personal strengths only. After this, looking at the results they had, I can say doping is useless.

So, in my opinion doping doesn't work IF THE MENTALITY ABOUT TRAINING IS CORRECT. This means not only hard work (many do it), but right work. Training well is always training hard, not always training hard means training well.

I want the athletes believe in their NATURAL possibilities, using proper training. In my opinion, this is the best way for developing strong personality and self confidence, and these are two qualitiesd at the base of every performance.

I don't want athletes thinking a part of their shape depends on external factors,

So, my opinion is as follows :

athletes looking at doping are WEAK PERSONS UNDER PSYCHOLOGICAL POINT OF VIEW, since they look for some AID coming fro m sources external their body and their mind.

But this is what happens today, frequently, in the normal life too. Do you think we have the need to use all the pharmacological supplements we are bombarded to use everyday from every kind of advertising ? This generated a "mental addiction“ that I absolutely refuse, not depending on the fact you use something legal or illegal, but on the fact you use something external your training in order to increase your strength.

For that reason I don't want my athletes use ANY SUPPLEMENT, I don't care if legal or not.

In the most part of cases, athletes decide to try more hard training AFTER getting some drug, because before they thought was not possible to train so much and to recover.

so, before taking PEDs THEY DIDN'T TRY.

I want people not fearing to train hard, may be deciding a workout is too hard only AFTER trying. So, I want people able to continuously overtaking their mental limits.

May be blood doping can work with top kenyans too. But if increasing a little under physiological side means to lose more under psychological side, finding strong motivation in some external aid (so becoming weak when you can't use anything else than your mental strength), DOPING BECOMES NOT ONLY USELESS, but also DAMAGEOUS.

For that reason I can't accept some ridicolous parameter I see in some pseudo scientific article.

I KNOW WHERE IT'S POSSIBLE ARRIVE BEING CLEAN, and not all my athletes are the best talented in the World.

Why I have to doubt about Bekele, for example ?

When he was 18 (in 2001), so of sure clean, I saw him running 3000m in Bruxelles, if I well remember, in 7'30" (World Junior Record) with last 300m in 38". This because his basic talent. And I have 9 athletes between 26'30" and 26'55" with less talent of Kenenisa. So, why I have to be surprised ?

The reality is too many people, not having any direct knowledge of the top talent, because they see the athletes during their competitions only, not during their training and their normal life, create myths where there is aqbsolute normality of life, and the difference is based on different level of talent.

Normal people know normal cars, and ADMIRE Formula One without really knowing the different particulars they have. So, physiology works in the same way, but the levels that is possible to reach are quite different, and only for professionals in the field is possible to know the real values of top athletes.

Apart moral and sports ethic that are subjetive values that we might preserve, ther´s something real about the pharmacology addition. I did remember here a few sportsman, but we might remember Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson, that die by drug addiction.

I remember russian olympic Vladimir Kuts that died aged only 48 years old, It was possibly because of a heart attack, but the indirect reason is because of too much alcohol drinking, but the drinking abuse comes from post-competitive career, and during his career he did too much drugs that he got addicted.

I did remember Marco Pantani for the same socio-patholgic reason lied with drug addition in post-competitive career, but i might remember Florence Griffith-Joyner died with 38 yeaas old just. I remember Tony Simpson, one of the first victims during theTour de France of 1967 with abuse of amphetamines. i also remember Jacques Anquetil, died just at 53 years old after years of competitive drug abuse - amphetamines and also blood transfusion, and we may ask if the cancer isn´t result of that drug abuse.

But there are other less famous like the Spain Diego García - spanish from galicia - he second in the 1994 european marathon that died suddenly at one easy training session due to past drug usage.

Doping in high dosage is too danger.

While Mr. Canova will continue in his usual blather, I made simple calculations for those, who are interested in the effect of EPO on athletic performance. It can be estimated quite easily, given the fact that performances in middle/long distance running between 1986-1994 stagnated and subsequently exploded in mid-90's, when EPO hit the black market.

800 m:

1986-94: 1:43,9

1996-99: 1:43,2

=0.7 sec. A limited improvement, with respect to the fact that this distance is 40% anaerobic. But it would certainly be sufficient for Epopketer to break Coe's WR.

1500 m:

1986-94: 3:32,9

1996-99: 3:30,5

=2.4 sec. The anaerobic proportion is still ca. 25%. Personally, I think that this is quite reasonable, considering the sudden improvement of Eporceli from 3:31,00 to 3:28,82 in 1992. But in the case of El Eporrouj, it may have been even bigger.

3000 m steeple

1986-94: 8:12,4

1996-99: 8:06,9

=6.5 sec. A distance, where mainly Epoptanui excelled in early 90's. Again, this is very likely, given the fact that Epoptanui was running 8:02-8:08 and then suddenly exploded to 7:59,18 in 1995.

5000 m:

1986-94: 13:10,3

1996-99: 12:54,8

=15.5 sec. A number that would be very close to estimations from EPO tests. In fact, Eposelassie improved from 13:03 to 12:44 within 2 years at the beginning of the EPO era (1993-95). His comrade Epomen went from 12:56 to 12:39 within 1995-97.

GenericID wrote:

If the graphs aren't indicative of doping, how do they help with targeting testing?

I notice you've ignored the main point - taken over the entire history of athletics, the 25 year period of the graphs does NOT indicate doping, for two reasons:

1. The previous 25 years had larger drops in record times, and;

2. Records and average times have continued to fall despite the introduction of a reliable EPO test and the biological passport.

So, I ask again, what is the point of those graphs?

Records continue to fall in the 800 m and in the marathon. The first distance is sufficiently anaerobic to benefit from other drugs than EPO (SARMs???), and the other is hardly subject to rigorous testing.

that what happened

its so obvious like

(and they didn stop using when the epo test came in lol)

fellas were bustin their chops for years runnin 13-10

all of a sudden guys were runnin 30sec faster

i mean come on

10000m

all of a sudden 26-30 was the new 27-30

epo did the same to distance running as it did to cycling

only we dont know so much about distance running

The times immediately dropped after the introduction of the first anti-EPO test in 2000, but again started to increase mere two years later. The reason? Proteases - enzymes that are able to destroy the protein structure of EPO. The stellar times again dropped after 2006, when tests against proteases were introduced.

just sayin wrote:

so at the very top of elite distance running we have a bunch of the very best clean guys mixing it up with lesser athletes who are doping

the prob i have with that theory is that imo the doped guys are always a step ahead of any clean guys

cycling has shown us that over 20 years

LOL (Laughing out loud)

like i'm just sayin about geb and bekele lol

they ethiopian but still

what are the chances of them dominating clean

(and considering their association with hermens also)

right through from 93-08

before the blood passport

zero in my opinion

Z-E-R-O.

António Cabral wrote:

I remember russian olympic Vladimir Kuts that died aged only 48 years old, It was possibly because of a heart attack, but the indirect reason is because of too much alcohol drinking, but the drinking abuse comes from post-competitive career, and during his career he did too much drugs that he got addicted.

Pure and simple, Kuts always ate and drink to excess. Even when he was running at his best he was sometimes 40 pounds overweight. You can see the flab hanging off his body in old videos. It would have been even more amazing than what he already did, to see what he'd have run with healthy eating habits.

Some people think everything is about drugs, when it's exactly the reverse. It is nothing about drugs, and everything about one's personal talent and habits.

J.R. wrote:

António Cabral wrote:

I remember russian olympic Vladimir Kuts that died aged only 48 years old, It was possibly because of a heart attack, but the indirect reason is because of too much alcohol drinking, but the drinking abuse comes from post-competitive career, and during his career he did too much drugs that he got addicted.

Pure and simple, Kuts always ate and drink to excess. Even when he was running at his best he was sometimes 40 pounds overweight. You can see the flab hanging off his body in old videos. It would have been even more amazing than what he already did, to see what he'd have run with healthy eating habits.

Some people think everything is about drugs, when it's exactly the reverse. It is nothing about drugs, and everything about one's personal talent and habits.

Did you knew and talk to him him like i did ? No you didn´t or you wouldn´t say what you did.

António Cabral wrote:Did you knew and talk to him him like i did ? No you didn´t or you wouldn´t say what you did.

seeing as he died in '75 when you were barely more than a teenager, you seriously expect a legend from behind the iron-curtain to give a full "confession" to some portuguese kid-nobody ???

Can please explain what these times are ? Are the average of top 10, the average of the averages for the period you speak about, or something else ? Really I don't understand these numbers,