Fishay wrote:
inwoba wrote:So that's what, 112 MPW at altitude for high school kids? Oh boy, I can just imagine the burnout and injuries that will come from this.
don't believe everything you see or hear.
You keep telling usb to not believe ... what are you saying isnt true? The mileage? Or are you saying the whole thing didn't happen, that Arcada haters conspired to create a fake video? If you conceed the video is real, how many miles did they run?
Nike Outpost wrote:
inwoba wrote:So that's what, 112 MPW at altitude for high school kids? Oh boy, I can just imagine the burnout and injuries that will come from this.
don't believe everything you see or hear.
You keep telling usb to not believe ... what are you saying isnt true? The mileage? Or are you saying the whole thing didn't happen, that Arcada haters conspired to create a fake video? If you conceed the video is real, how many miles did they run?[/quote]
Not sure how you got 112 mpw? Most likely mileage progression over 10 days. Most likely some kids did run more than others, like the top varsity of course. Pretty sure this was the same altitude workout as last year, so I don't know what you're gettin' at with the "burnout and injuries" stuff? After all, they did go deep into post season last year winning a State and Nike national titles. And USATF Junior Olympics XC Nationals after that!
Or are you really suggesting a team pay the expenses for 10 days in Mammoth and do moderate/low mileage?
The video IS actual footage while in Mammoth. T-shirts were given by meet sponsors for the Elite Coaches race entries. Pizza dinner afterwards also provided by sponsors and kids did have the option of buying whatever they wanted to on their own.
Question: So in your expert opinion, what is the recommended altitude mileage for high school kids per week, 10 days, a year? Inquiring minds want to know!
Moneybags??? wrote:
Not sure how you got 112 mpw? Most likely mileage progression over 10 days. Most likely some kids did run more than others, like the top varsity of course. Pretty sure this was the same altitude workout as last year, so I don't know what you're gettin' at with the "burnout and injuries" stuff? After all, they did go deep into post season last year winning a State and Nike national titles. And USATF Junior Olympics XC Nationals after that!
Or are you really suggesting a team pay the expenses for 10 days in Mammoth and do moderate/low mileage?
The video IS actual footage while in Mammoth. T-shirts were given by meet sponsors for the Elite Coaches race entries. Pizza dinner afterwards also provided by sponsors and kids did have the option of buying whatever they wanted to on their own.
Question: So in your expert opinion, what is the recommended altitude mileage for high school kids per week, 10 days, a year? Inquiring minds want to know!
160 miles in 10 days comes out to 16 miles/day. 16 miles/day * 7 days/week = 112 MPW.
That's the minimum, and it's already too high. If some kids ran more than others, it means that they had to run over 112 MPW to compensate for the ones that ran under 112 MPW. If it was progression mileage over 10 days, it means that they ran greater than 112 MPW to compensate for the days when they ran less.
Running high mileage at altitude isn't a problem, but doing it when you just arrived from sea level certainly is. At 7000', you need to take the first week or two easy so your body can get adjusted to it without getting overtrained.
inwoba wrote:
That's the minimum, and it's already too high. If some kids ran more than others, it means that they had to run over 112 MPW to compensate for the ones that ran under 112 MPW. If it was progression mileage over 10 days, it means that they ran greater than 112 MPW to compensate for the days when they ran less.
Running high mileage at altitude isn't a problem, but doing it when you just arrived from sea level certainly is. At 7000', you need to take the first week or two easy so your body can get adjusted to it without getting overtrained.
Or can mean the complete opposite genius.
160 miles in 10 days MAX.
Which could also mean less than 16 miles a day? Yeah, and may be that's "too high" for you but, many high schools are currently doing two a days and possibly exceeding that. One could easily assume and guess that's what these altitude runs were split up into (one in the morning / one in afternoon). So yes, many may have ran less, with exception to top varsity if (that's IF)all were healthy and recovered properly. Doesn't mean running with reckless abandonment and disregard to health and safety for the sake of mileage. Come on now!
So, what your saying is: teams that go to Mammoth for a week or two are being over trained because they wouldn't be acclimated yet? And if they run an excess of 16 miles a day they'll be burned out and/or injured?
And maybe next your gonna say is that Nike is attributing to this by having the Nike Outpost there and encouraging schools to come up to Mammoth for a week to get "over trained", "burned out", and "injured" but don't forget your custom t-shirt???
Moneybags??? wrote:
160 miles in 10 days MAX.
Proof?
Which could also mean less than 16 miles a day?
Sure, but to hit 160 miles in 10 days, every 10 mile day has to be balanced by a 22 mile day (or two 19 mile days, six 17 mile days, etc.)
So, what your saying is: teams that go to Mammoth for a week or two are being over trained because they wouldn't be acclimated yet? And if they run an excess of 16 miles a day they'll be burned out and/or injured?
You can go from sea level to altitude and run on day 1. It's just a question of how long your runs are. A one hour jog and some strides is completely fine. A 16 mile a day average for the first 10 days is not, especially if you're a high school kid.
Heck, I'm a 4:23 miler (better than almost all of the Arcadia team), and even I had trouble running 70 MPW at altitude during my first few days there. It takes a lot out of you if you're not acclimated. Your legs feel dead, you're always tired, and anything less than 9 hours of sleep will make you miserable. 112 MPW? Forget it.
Moneybags??? wrote:
160 miles in 10 days MAX.
Sorry, but this ridiculous. O'Brien should be fired for this alone.
Curious, how do O'Brien's athletes fair 4 years after high school? How many have showed significant improvement?
Who does O'Brien mention influences his philosophy the most? I fairly confident the correct answer would never advocate this kind of mileage for a HS runner.
Sorry, but this ridiculous. O'Brien should be fired for this alone.
Mammoth may be the top H.S. summer training locale in the U.S. High schools and youth clubs have been going up there since the early 1970s. I think Coach Yap from the So Cal Roadrunners started the craze back in about 1970. Loyola, Arcadia, Great Oak, Capo Valley, California, Redlands, Royal, Laguna Beach, etc, etc. Nike Outpost had about 30 - 40 teams come through last year. Some of the elite Nike runners also go out on runs with the teams. Many of the runs are known by so many teams, and you'll find a lot of teams out at the Shady Rest picnic area. 90 miles for the week is probably commonplace. The runs are incredible. Lake Valentine, Crater Lake -- and incredibly tough. But they are well traveled and not rocky like in Colorado. There are over 300 runs up there. Mapmyrun has a lot of them, but someone should put together a list of the top runs.
It's also the home of the Mammoth Track Club, headed by Deena Kastor. They had some tremendous talent up there with Coach Larsen and Coach Mahon a few years back. The Halls, Brown, Keflezighi, Kastor and some others up there. It's a tremendous place!!!!
Also, having been to camps at Idyllwild, Big Bear and Mammoth, only one stands out. Many SoCal teams like Big Bear for proximity, but they are missing out on so much. Mammoth is far superior. Not even close.
inwoba wrote:
Moneybags??? wrote:160 miles in 10 days MAX.
Proof?
Which could also mean less than 16 miles a day?
Sure, but to hit 160 miles in 10 days, every 10 mile day has to be balanced by a 22 mile day (or two 19 mile days, six 17 mile days, etc.)
So, what your saying is: teams that go to Mammoth for a week or two are being over trained because they wouldn't be acclimated yet? And if they run an excess of 16 miles a day they'll be burned out and/or injured?
You can go from sea level to altitude and run on day 1. It's just a question of how long your runs are. A one hour jog and some strides is completely fine. A 16 mile a day average for the first 10 days is not, especially if you're a high school kid.
Heck, I'm a 4:23 miler (better than almost all of the Arcadia team), and even I had trouble running 70 MPW at altitude during my first few days there. It takes a lot out of you if you're not acclimated. Your legs feel dead, you're always tired, and anything less than 9 hours of sleep will make you miserable. 112 MPW? Forget it.
Undoubtedly it doesn't completely make sense from the standpoint of fitness for a bunch of high school kids living at sea-level to go sleep at 8000-8500' and put in big miles as high as 12000'.
What you aren't considering is that to most of those kids, the fitness doesn't really matter. They are just having fun with their teammates in a beautiful area away from home.
Even for those kids that are like you and get crushed at altitude, they can still have fun and are not going to ruin their season from putting in a big 10 day stint. It's just not as big of a deal as you are making it out to be. Some will get faster from that camp and some won't, but it'll be memorable for all of them.
They are just kids. Whether they run 5 miles a day or 20 miles a day for 10 days straight, as long as they don't get seriously injured and are having fun, let them be.
This is weird.
A fired coach is still coaching? Does no one see a red flag here? This seems very cultish, outright strange and illegal.
A 10 day HS camp? Odd for HS level.
16 miles per day. If all you do is sleep an run that's fine. I guess. But there are not many HSers who can handle that. But if they can that is great for them. As a parent and coach I find it excessive and unhealthy with the risk outweighing the benefit. But I also can appreciate young people challenging themselves. This is also a bit out there, and concerning but the least of the issues here.
Again, how is he still involved?
Skeptic of it All wrote:
This is weird.
A fired coach is still coaching? Does no one see a red flag here? This seems very cultish, outright strange and illegal.
A 10 day HS camp? Odd for HS level.
16 miles per day. If all you do is sleep an run that's fine. I guess. But there are not many HSers who can handle that. But if they can that is great for them. As a parent and coach I find it excessive and unhealthy with the risk outweighing the benefit. But I also can appreciate young people challenging themselves. This is also a bit out there, and concerning but the least of the issues here.
Again, how is he still involved?
A cult? Its not a cult, its an army. O'Briens army. Lol.
But seriously I agree. Its excessive, cultish, and odd that he is still involved. That said, it is legal and as long as the kids and the parents are ok with it, its their business.
Just to save you guys some time arguing, no Arcadia kid ran 160 miles in 10 days at Mammoth. I'm not saying what they do up there or down in their park is easy, but their training is much more manageable than whatever numbers may indicate due to the way they structure their 40 or 50 or 60 miles a week or whatever the case may be.
I had my first year of year round training a couple years ago with them after 8 years of running on and off and proceeded to set pr's across the board while also working full time (unfortunately, I've since gone back to just running on and off). A buddy of mine who had run collegiately at a smallish local D1 school was also able to get in the best 5K shape of his life after taking a couple years off and also working full time.
w/r/t the last 2 posts, the kids were signed up or had already planned to sign up for his club program this summer before the news of his dismissal. I don't think the high school offers a summer cross country program anymore. They've used this summer to get the new head coach more involved and to have more of a grasp of the training, which he had started to do this past spring when he was coaching the girls that did not run track.
Skeptic of it All wrote: This seems very . . . illegal.
Educate us Mr. Schultz, what's illegal about it?
honkforcookies wrote:
I had my first year of year round training a couple years ago with them after 8 years of running on and off and proceeded to set pr's across the board while also working full time (unfortunately, I've since gone back to just running on and off). A buddy of mine who had run collegiately at a smallish local D1 school was also able to get in the best 5K shape of his life after taking a couple years off and also working full time.
w/r/t the last 2 posts, the kids were signed up or had already planned to sign up for his club program this summer before the news of his dismissal. I don't think the high school offers a summer cross country program anymore. They've used this summer to get the new head coach more involved and to have more of a grasp of the training, which he had started to do this past spring when he was coaching the girls that did not run track.
So they let high school alumni train with the team full time? WTF? I don't know of any other school that does this. My high school coach didn't let anyone who wasn't a current student run with the team. The only exception was alumni meets and on Fridays in summer (we never did any hard runs on Fridays).
Also, school started already, and O'Brien wasn't reinstated. Despite this, he's still seems to be coaching the kids. Again, WTF is going on? I though he was barred from any contact with the cross country team. Guess they need to put a restraining order on him.
Arcadia HS officially starts school today. 8/27 get your facts straight!
fishy wrote:
So they let high school alumni train with the team full time? WTF? I don't know of any other school that does this.
But it gets worse. They also let runners from other teams train with him. He won a USATF national championship with Luis Gutierrez on his team. It's called "club running." He had one of the few national high school teams that ran the USATF national meets. That's the beauty of O'Brien. Creative, dedicated and unorthodox.
Some people never really get genius. They toil away with their pitiful droll lives looking for ways to bring down the best.
fishy wrote: My high school coach didn't let anyone who wasn't a current student run with the team.
Many of the great socal teams have alumni run with their team during the summer. It's a way to show pride in a program and loyalty to a coach. O'Brien I've heard was a master at building pride and loyalty. I'm sorry your HS coach was either too insecure or too inept to understand this. You offer so many looney comments and seem to understand so little about x-country and teamwork. Maybe you should just look into a restraining jacket now and save yourself years of pain and anguish.
Oh no wrote:
Arcadia HS officially starts school today. 8/27 get your facts straight!
Fine, I was wrong on that. But let's see whether O'Brien shows up to cross country practice today. Does anyone who's familiar with the situation want to report back?
I would drive there myself to find out if I were close by.
Mammoth has my Vote wrote:
They also let runners from other teams train with him.
This alone should get him fired. If he were a football coach and allowed players from other high schools to train with the team, he would have gotten canned a long time ago.
fishy wrote:
[quote]Mammoth has my Vote wrote:
They also let runners from other teams train with him.
This alone should get him fired. If he were a football coach and allowed players from other high schools to train with the team, he would have gotten canned a long time ago.[/
Football is loaded with summer all-star clubs and camps. And so is basketball, baseball and soccer in socal. I admire your egalitarianism . . . your ignorance isn't restricted to x-country.