Is EPO a factor in NCAA distance running?

undisclosed collegiate athlete wrote:

wakeupbuddy wrote:

Not at all accurate. Who can't scrape together $300-500 to have a huge peak for a month? Roughly $400 for a 14:40 5000 guy to drop to 13:50 for 5000. The problem is staying under the radar, at which point, why even do it?

I feel super sketchy asking this...but is it really that cheap? Don't you need a doctor to prescribe it?

Also, just to clarify, my PR's are cruddy enough that improving into the mid-14s would be a big enough accomplishment.

Try being more dedicated and mentally tough, rather than cheating your way to a decent college time.

Yeah, it's really that cheap for an amount that would let your performance come up significantly for the last 2-3 weeks of a 6 week block of it. Do you need a doctor to prescribe it? Well, let me answer that with a question, do YOU need a doctor to get pot?

Again, this is why I think you see PED's actually more prevalent at the weekend warrior level, the junk is accessible, and they won't improve to the point of being tested when going from 16:00 to 14:50, cause who cares? The guys that are really good have to be pretty brazen to dope anymore, because when you go from 13:20 to 12:50 people are going to ask a lot of questions and scientists are going to analyze the shit out of you in the lab, and then the great dilemma is presented to that athlete because they HAVE to keep using to stay at the level, but now they are under the microscope.

And the yet to be tested for EpoStimulatingAgent pills are already here, but only the rich guys can afford that stuff currently.

It's all such a big simple game, isn't it? People have different reasons, and so I can't speak for anybody, but I suspect the weekend warrior types aren't doing it for any sort of local glory, or awards, etc., which is what the current en vogue "dopers-suck" people rag on about why they are such idiots with no moral compass when they find out about someone using. No, I think most of the weekend warriors want to run faster, longer, cause it's fun and it feels good.

To reiterate, yeah, EPO is a factor in NCAA distance running, but it's a factor at the mid and back-of-pack more than likely, not up front.

Is this a joke? As a guy who was a mid-pack DI guy and who knew dozens of other mid-pack and back-of-pack DI guys, I find it incredibly hard to believe that there is any EPO use whatsoever at this level. I've never been offered drugs. I've never known anyone who talked about taking drugs. I"ve never seen any evidence whatsoever of anyone I know taking drugs. I've never even known anyone who said that they would take EPO if they could afford it. I probably could have afforded it in college and yet it never crossed my mind to use it. When it came up in conversation it was always as a joke. "wouldn't it be funny if we all just started taking EPO and qualified for nationals!" No one ever mentioned it seriously. Why the hell would we use it? To sacrifice our health and severely deplete our limited funds just to run a little faster? I'm sure pretty much everyone who ran in college had a similar experience.

No, it's not a joke, I mean it IS a joke, right, but its real. Don't get me wrong, I think epo use is very limited, but more prevalent among those not fast enough to really matter.

As a mid pack D1 guy, how many times were you drug tested in and out of competition? Zero? Once? In 4 years? You don't think there are guys and gals willing to roll the dice when the chance of them being tested is nearly zero? And raising your hematocrit from 40-43% up to 50% isn't dangerous, it's when you get greedy and push it closer to 60% that major risks are being taken. In fact, if judged by vitality, you'd be hard pressed to argue the 80-100mpw runner on epo with a HCT of 50% isn't healthier than the guy who has a HCT of 40%.

There are more undetectable ESA's (epo stimulating agents) being made every year. Enhancement is the future, like it or not, though I suspect we'll accept and embrace it once genetic modification is mastered.

I would say no on the EPO, based on the fact that there aren't any NCAA runners dying in their sleep. These aren't guys who'd have access to personal physicians to keep a watch on things.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was steroid use going on, though. Especially back in the 70, where there are a lot of stories about certain groups of pro runners.

the idea of drugs taking you from 14:40 to 13:50, or 13:20 to 12:50, is ridiculous.

HHEE wrote:

I would say no on the EPO, based on the fact that there aren't any NCAA runners dying in their sleep. These aren't guys who'd have access to personal physicians to keep a watch on things.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was steroid use going on, though. Especially back in the 70, where there are a lot of stories about certain groups of pro runners.

Nobody is dying in their sleep anymore, that was happening when EPO came on the scene and it was not widely known how to use it. Taking your hematocrit from 42% up to 60% is drastically different than taking it from 42% up to 52%.

As for the idea of it being "ridiculous" that it could turn a 13:20 guy into a 12:50, sure the idea is ridiculous, but it's a reality. That's "only" a difference of about 5% more aerobic power.

No Joke wrote:

HHEE wrote:

I would say no on the EPO, based on the fact that there aren't any NCAA runners dying in their sleep. These aren't guys who'd have access to personal physicians to keep a watch on things.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if there was steroid use going on, though. Especially back in the 70, where there are a lot of stories about certain groups of pro runners.

Nobody is dying in their sleep anymore, that was happening when EPO came on the scene and it was not widely known how to use it. Taking your hematocrit from 42% up to 60% is drastically different than taking it from 42% up to 52%.

As for the idea of it being "ridiculous" that it could turn a 13:20 guy into a 12:50, sure the idea is ridiculous, but it's a reality. That's "only" a difference of about 5% more aerobic power.

Thinking a little bit about the statistics (that is one of my areas), I agree with HHEE more than No Joke. The latter is assuming that almost all of those taking EPO would use it 'correctly', not over use it, not make mistakes etc. and than earlier on most users had little or no idea, even though they were part of more organized doping.

I love this "Only the mid pack runners take PEDs" stuff. Canova kept throwing that out on the Kenyan PED thread. But yet he was having his athlete's blood work done often. People are using drugs at all levels. It is a lot more likely that it is most prevalent at the top levels.

coach d. wrote:

I used epo when I was running D3 and went from 15:30/33:00 to sub 14:40/31:00 in my final year. My mother is a heme/onc physician and allowed me to use it in somewhat small doses. Now that I am in medical school and learning pharmacology, I wish I would have been more aggressive with PEDs. Not sure who else was using it, but pretty sure I would have been under 30 with another year of using it.

BTW, my mother is Eastern European (Romanian) and had no ethical issues with it, only health/medical. She did not want me to race if it was in the 80s or above and was always concerned about hydration.

I never felt like I was running any faster, but my times were obviously much better. Years later, no known side effects or guilt.

clearly this is not coach d - notice how his name has a period after it, because coach d is a registered name.

26mi235 wrote:

Thinking a little bit about the statistics (that is one of my areas), I agree with HHEE more than No Joke. The latter is assuming that almost all of those taking EPO would use it 'correctly', not over use it, not make mistakes etc. and than earlier on most users had little or no idea, even though they were part of more organized doping.

In the early days, nobody had any idea about the side effects of EPO. Today, anyone who makes the effort to research and procure EPO will know about them, and will not make the same mistakes that the "lab rat" cyclists made. Measuring your hematocrit is easy, cheap and pretty much fool proof. Who do you think bought these 33 centrifuges (and hundreds more like it):

I don't think most college runners use EPO, but it's definitely accessible and can be used safely by the "weekend warriors".

bigtool wrote:

Is this a joke? As a guy who was a mid-pack DI guy and who knew dozens of other mid-pack and back-of-pack DI guys, I find it incredibly hard to believe that there is any EPO use whatsoever at this level. I've never been offered drugs. I've never known anyone who talked about taking drugs.

You remind me of a story I heard once about a woman in NYC who couldn't believe that Nixon won the election in '72 because neither she nor any of her friends voted for him.

Cheating happens at every level. It happens in club races. It happens with Masters athletes. And it most definitely occurs in the NCAA at all divisions. EPO is definitely a factor in NCAA distance running because there are plenty of people that can afford it.

When you get to the reasons why people cheat, that's harder to answer. Mostly from what I've seen, it's insecurity and greed.

A few years after I was out of college (DIII), I was having some fun on the local running scene. I joined a club and we did pretty well in some XC races. Everyone was pretty low key and it was a good time. Some time later, there were two guys I knew from school who moved into the area who were twins. They started their own club and tried to sign up some ringers to the club by paying them. I distinctly remember being near the start line on one race and one of the brothers was offering to pay a hispanic immigrant to join his team, but the guy didn't speak any English. It was comical. Why the hell would you cheat like that to win a stupid patch? Who knows? The best part is our team still beat his that year.

Another guy in our area was a pretty notable masters runner. He wanted to increase his mileage, so he essentially faked a disability so that he could work part time and train more and he still collected disability.

So do you really think that someone who has access to EPO with these kinds of morals and value won't cheat? Hell yeah, they will. We need to stop pretending that runners are somehow different and that our sport is different than the more mainstream sports. It's not, and the cheaters are winning because we don't really want to catch them.

Don't know about NCAA level, but the poster who said it is common among weekend warriors was spot on.

The local DC area running scene has a major cheating epidemic and there isn't a damn thing in the world we can do something about it. I don't know about EPO, but for sure there is abuse with Viagra, testosterone boosting steroid "precursors" from GNC, thyroid meds, etc. I won't name names, but people talk.

Testing is a joke. Just don't take anything within the week leading up to the race.