More Kenyan Doping

Renato, athletes in Kenya are getting busted left and right. Maybe your group is clean but something bad is happening right around you. Since you are very familiar with the situation in Kenya, much more familiar than the letsrun crowd, can you share a little of what you know about these athletes who were caught? Who is coaching them?

123 wrote:

Renato: don't retreat in the face of anonymous idiocy. Loud individuals who lazily believe East African running dominance is due solely to doping will not be put off that belief by anything you say. Don't make them your audience. There are more informed people listening.

I'd be surprised if anyone believed this. I am surprised, too, though, that there are people who believe that all of the top East Africans are clean. I admit that I used to think that, but, given the revelations of the last few years, I doubt that anybody at or even near the top of sport is clean. It's been this way for at least 20 years. Probably longer than that.

Renato, can you give us a blunt and honest opinion? What percentage of athletes were using performance enhancing drugs in London?

ukathleticscoach wrote:

I agree with Renato to a certain extent. There has to be a limit on how EPO can improve you

You brits have no clue.

Ever heard of Bjarne Riis? He was nicknamed "Mr. 60%". What Renato is referring to is that there is little benefit in doping someone from his natural 45% to the legal limit of 48%. Riis was the least talented cyclist to ever win a Tour de France. EPO made a race horse out of that donkey. If you raise hct from 38 to 60, miracles happen.

Would be interesting to hear what the natural hct of Bekele, El G, Haile, Komen etc are. I bet they are rather low (Armstrong level) and not 44-46 range.

coach d wrote:

In the decision on Lance Armstrong, the USADA Report (p. 137) contains the following:

[quote]

3. Understanding limitations to the testing methods

Dr. Ferrari recognized that the EPO testing method works through separating and measuring the quantity (known as “intensity”) of various types of EPO and comparing the ratio of EPO bands in what is known as the “basic” region (where the bands tend to be caused by the administration of synthetic EPO) to bands in the acidic region (where the bands are naturally produced).

Any comment?

What kind of analysis is performed here? A gas chromatogram?

And that the courses were accurate (for the marathon)

1. It may be true that EPO won't help the "top" guys. I'll probably never know for sure. But the claim would be more convincing if it were made by people who are not connected in some way with the performance of these top guys. I've never seen anyone but you make this claim. Is there anyone else, preferably someone who's not a coach, agent, etc. for top athletes who agrees with you?

2. Nothing in the universe can travel faster than the speed of light and no amount of energy can accelerate something to faster than light speed. But it is at least theoretically possible to accelerate an object moving slower than light speed to the speed of light. Maybe guys who can run 2:03-2:04 cannot get to 2:02-2:03 by using EPO or something like it. But a not top guy, say at 2:05-2:07, could use EPO or something similar and get to 2:03-2:04 at which point he would be like the object accelerated to light speed, as fast as the object moving fast "naturally." You never seem to deal with this idea as far as I can tell.

3. Even if EPO does not make the very top guys any faster, that doesn't mean they aren't using it and that's illegal. I note that you say EPO won't work for them many times. Have you ever actually said that they don't use it? The two things are not he same.

' EPO made a race horse out of that donkey.'

Yes, but those East African's are not donkeys!

Living and training at high altitude is going to push your levels up to close what you get from EPO. It doesn't seem logical to me that EPO is not going to push it a bit further though especially when the athletes have to go to low levels to compete

But was EPO really helping those doping sprinters much. Was it hell over 100/200m (even in training). Did not stop them cramming it down their throats though

Some people are constantly looking for some trick to gain edge on their competitors

Ice of the Tipberg wrote:

Respectfully, and I have much respect for you Coach canova, but I disagree with you, wholeheartedly.

donkey kong wrote:

Absolutely this. His post reads like a kid trying to defend the existence of santa.

^^^

How can one take seriously the claim that while there is doping, it doesn't work with top athletes. Its easy to hide behind, "unless you have worked with top athletes.."

The façade is crumbling.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

' EPO made a race horse out of that donkey.'

Yes, but those East African's are not donkeys!

How do you know these guys are not donkeys? Is Kisorio a racehorse or a donkey?

They use a dual-column gas chromatograph, Hewlett-Packard model 5710a with flame analyzing detectors. Only the floor model comes turbo-charged though.

bangalangadanga wrote:

What kind of analysis is performed here? A gas chromatogram?

Maybe that is what Canova is saying! You are naive to think that a top Kenyan doped to the gills can not defeat and clean Rupp.

Lyndon LaRouche wrote:

Ice of the Tipberg wrote:

Respectfully, and I have much respect for you Coach canova, but I disagree with you, wholeheartedly.

donkey kong wrote:

Absolutely this. His post reads like a kid trying to defend the existence of santa.

^^^

How can one take seriously the claim that while there is doping, it doesn't work with top athletes. Its easy to hide behind, "unless you have worked with top athletes.."

The façade is crumbling.

^^^^

Exactly what I wanted to say, but wouldn't have done so as well as you.

"It doesn't work on top athletes."

But a 2:05 athlete just got caught.

"Yeah but it doesn't work on 2:04 athletes."

That doesn't make ant sense.

"Shut up, I work with top athletes."

an expert wrote:

Kenyans are now busted left and right and you keep telling

us that EPO only helps 2:07 guys (not elite) and not the 2:05

guys. Hilarious.

Agree that it is hilarious, but Renato has created quite a smokescreen here.

The debate should be whether the top Kenyans are using or not (and it is a proven fact that some are). The discussion has shifted to Renatos argument that it doesn't help them. We will probably never know for sure if he is correc or not. What really matters is who is abiding by the rules.

Renato Canova wrote:

I'm not interested to have credibility with people speaking without knowing, .......... people not knowing the reality of different sports.

Really want to believe this, but just can't. It goes against all the hematology journals. Sure, viscosity can be a limiter, but the journals show this happens as the HCT approaches 65%! That cycling and running, or xc skiing and running, or xc skiing and cycling, etc., are not comparable is just absolute non-sense. It's an oxygen race, plain and simple.

One would expect an outlier or two, and we just aren't seeing that. There is too much depth at the top and not enough consistency, to believe the results, especially at the marathon. The marathon is a total joke right now if we are going to continue we want to be a doping-free society, which itself is just totally stupid, as now the only part of society that pretends to want to be doping-free are athletes. Even people who watch athletics are bombarded with pharmaceutical ads on ESPN to take androgel (testosterone) or the like. This game is getting so tired...

Good post. I'm seriously following less and less of elite running (roads, track, xc) because I have no more respect for the athletes.

silly question

You are right, something happens, may be in the last 3 years. But is not something as people thinks.

For what I know (really not so much), there are no coaches or managers involved.

It seems there is some doctor and some pharmacist who approached directly some local athlete (not of international level, and in the most part of cases not able to compete abroad), telling them "why you don't use something I can give you, don't worry, it's legal, and you can improve of 1 minute in 10 km. You don't need to pay me anything, but can give me 15% of your price, since you don't have any manager".

In Kenya, at the moment, there are many local races, and of course there is no antidoping. The first prize can be, for example, 50,000 Kenyan Shillings (about 600 USD), with some prize till the 5th position.

There are also a lot of athletes without manager, that need to survive and, winning some local race, to put themselves in evidence for the future.

Among this level of athletes, without any organisation and without real knowledge, doctors and pharmacists "cheaters" had good chances to fish some desperate.

Some of these athletes (many of them thinking to use something legal) became able to go abroad, continuing to take the "support" already used, or with a new manager, or paying their ticket themselves (this is the case of the most part of athletes running in Asian Marathons). In those marathon there is antidoping, and they are positive without knowing why.

I can exclude the hypothesis there is something organised in systemic way. In Kenya, there are big groups of athletes training together, many without managers, and many with different managers. So, no central organisation, and managers and european coaches don't have any control on the group.

If we want to find some info, we need to go "inside" every group, because can be only inside groups already contaminated that the phenomen goes on.

AK has a very hard work to do, because in Kenya there isn't a law (like in Italy and France) making criminally guilty doctors and generally people pushing this type of drugs.

For what I know, AK takes this problem very seriously. The Federation asked to be helped by IAAF and WADA for having blood tests, because doesn't want to hide the problem.

Also, there is the plan to give more infos to athletes, in the most part not educated, about the rules and the position of some medicine (doping or not), because the most part don't know what is legal and what is not.

In my opinion, not more than 10% of the "positives" are really cheaters, 90% did some mistake for ignorance and/or because themselves cheated by the doctors / pharmacists I spoke before.

A correct education can avoid, for example, the possibility to use traditional medicines, coming from trees and flowers, because nobody knows what there is inside.

Exceptions can exist, for example Mathew Kisorio. But I can be 99% sure that nobody of the top athletes is in this group, because they don't believe EPO can work, they have more specific education and can ask to top managements, and they are already the best in the World being clean, so there is no reason to try something else with the risk to be caught positive.

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Yes this shows as much as anything that Renato is talking nonsense. Apparently Renato now knows more about all the other sports than the rest of us. There have been numerous articles written and tests done showing how EPO helps you in numerous endurance sports. The viscosity argument is a weak one, as many techniques have been perfected throughout the world to thin blood that has become viscous. Renato continues to call everyone else stupid and give the opinion that he is the only one who understands. Kind of sounds like Lance a few years ago.