More Kenyan Doping

If there are diminishing returns on EPO use, than there has to be a point where it stops working, correct? Canova is suggesting the very top athletes coming from altitude, who train with proper methodology, are at that point of no benefit. This doesn't seem too hard to understand. I don't know nearly enough to make that assumption about the current top kenyan/ethiopians, etc., but he did explain scientifically why this could be the case, which I appreciate very much. Also there haven't been any tests to prove it otherwise, so there is no real reason to accuse these specific athletes, whom he respects greatly.

A question for Canova, if EPO use doesn't effect the specific athlete you mentioned, (Which I pretty much agree with you about) what other drugs currently available could improve the performance of the very top kenyan/ethiopians, if there are any, or you want to say.

Also, Sprintgeezer brought up a really good point about "drug high" which got me thinking a bunch. This really seems like a psychological meets physical advantage, that could be used even without the use of performance enhancers. I'm really starting to think the correct mentality or attitude in training and in everyday life has more benefits than most would realize.

Runner85 wrote:

If there are diminishing returns on EPO use, than there has to be a point where it stops working, correct?

No. Not correct.

See the early classifications of Mohamed Mourith in the early editions world cross country and in the track runs as well and the half marathon the for example. Not as a rookie, but as experience runner with several years of experience and training behind him. Next see how their performances at every distance event, how that progress tremendously by EPO take, he did sub 13:00, sub 27:00 up to the point that he did win 2 world cross country champs against e world best. 3 weeks before the last WCC win, he said he was injured, but that couldn´t enable him to be second in the 3000m Indoor world champs. I saw that run because it was in Lisbon where I live. Mourith did frighten El Gerrouj in the last lap of that 3000m and El Guerrouj did win by a straight margin. Early, right after the first EPO caught, he denies and he set legal court protest to the court against IAAF, and then he was caught a second time, he got no more way to lie.

Now, tell me that by EPO he didn´t improve the performance at world top class ! ! ! I remember that we aren´t talk about someone mediocre runner, we are talking about the world´s best. Tell me that by EPO, the viscosity doesn´t able the runner to win over the others that did rich training supposedly. Tell me that high up the red cells with EPO can´t over exceed to win over the very best that did rich training.

Tell me to see if I can change my opinion and trust on you !

5. For increasing the speed if you are a cyclist, you need to be able to push a gear with 1-2 teeth more maintaining the same frequency, so the most important thing is TO INCREASE THE MUSCLE STRENGTH. For this reason, about doping, looking at some "aid" for enhancing the performances, GH and steroids are more important than EPO, that can be considered the base for being able to use more strength (look at the cocktail used by Armstrong)

this isn't correct renato

cyclists do use a cocktail of drugs but epo is the game changer

-they've been using steroids for years

Runner85 wrote:

If there are diminishing returns on EPO use, than there has to be a point where it stops working, correct?

This is not necessarily correct. Even if we grant Canova (and you) the point that it brings no further improvement, that does not mean the top athletes aren't using. Athletes search for anything that might give them an edge and don't need a double-blind placebo controlled study as evidence before they take something. See the recent deer-antler controvery...

Canova and Cabral--

I will keep the language simple for non-english-speakers.

I proceed on the assumption that EPO has no beneficial effect on red blood cell production in top African endurance runners--an assumption with which I neither agree, nor disagree.

Runner85: "I'm really starting to think the correct mentality or attitude in training and in everyday life has more benefits than most would realize."

Yes.

Thank-you for your posts, but you have not addressed my 2 basic questions:

1) Is EPO psychoactive, EVEN IF its effect on red blood cell production may be minimal in certain individuals?

2) Might top Africans use things other than EPO, that ARE psychoactive, either independently or in combination with EPO?

A third fundamental question is:

3) Does EPO have physiologic effects

a) OTHER THAN related to red blood cell production,

b) that would be performance-enhancing?

The answer to question (3)(a) is an unequivocal YES. EPO and its receptor are known to be expressed in human brain tissue and in cultured neurons. EPO is known to promote the survival of neurons after insults like oxygen debt, restricted blood supply, mechanical trauma, neuroinflammation, and excessive stimulation by neurotransmitters. The nature and mechanism of this protective effect are under investigation--see, for instance this paper from way back in 2001:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC31176/

It is, in my opinion, obvious that most, if not all, of the above-listed neural insults are experienced by physiologically top athletes in the highest-level performance of endurance running, especially in marathon, especially in hot conditions.

My personal answer to question (3)(b) is that the possible performance-related benefits of neuroprotection, not only within a single high-level marathon, but over the course of heavy training, are highly likely.

With regard to question (1), it is logical to believe that because EPO promotes neuron survival and is expressed in brain tissue, that EPO affects the mind, as the "mind" is centered in the brain. I admit that I don't know what the nature of any such psychoactive effect would be, but I suspect that it would be one of well-being and lack of fatigue, preventing any adverse feelings that would otherwise result from the death of brain tissue and other neurons under the stressors of intensive competition and/or training.

In this sense, performance-enhancing quality of EPO could be related to nothing other than its psychoactive effect, allowing an individual to realize his maximum physiologic performance, or allowing them to delay fatigue for a longer time than normal.

The discussion in this thread has so far centered on the red-blood-cell-producing effects of EPO and blood factors, but has completely ignored the neurologic and potentially psychoactive effects of EPO, which could permit higher workloads and more intensive training, which would raise the level of "stimulus" that Canova is always talking about, above the level achievable by any non-EPO means.

And finally, I still await an answer to question (2), whether top Africans might be using things other than EPO, like steroids or other hormones.

Thanks!

Sorry, one more thing:

I always believed that this neuroprotective benefit was one of the big reasons that sprinters like Marion used EPO, especially preventing neuron death in the case of neurotransmitter toxicity.

This obsession with EPO is silly. Why didn't athletes run as fast when blood doping was popular from 1971-1990? It has nothing to do with blood boosting obviously

As for Marion Jones using EPO, she did that because Conte told her too and sold her the stuff to make more money.

Young athletes have no interest in drugs until they become cynical brainwashed adults. Up till that point, they believe in their own natural talent.

Sprintgeezer, if you consult the latest IAAF list of sanctioned athletes you will find that a lot of the Kenyans on there were busted for norandrosterone (including Kisorio). If the Kenyan doping originates from a few bad doctors, then one can assume that these docs are pushing steroids quite a bit.

Bust the doctors before they exploit the runners. That's what the sport really needs to do.

Btw Sprintgeezer, I think there is a flaw in your EPO psychoactive argument. While it may be psychoactive, runners normally are not on EPO *during* competition (well only the dumb ones are). The EPO is eliminated soon after injection and then you're just left with the RBCs which stick around a lot longer.

But I do think the psychology angle is important. The "drug high" you described earlier can also be the feeling of amazement when you improve with little effort. Suddenly things are easy. This creates a positive feedback loop wherein the athletes gains confidence, trains harder, and so on. These benefits can carry on to competition even if the drug is no longer in the body.

Steroids don't help the best Kenyans. Only second-tier runners.

noce wrote:

Btw Sprintgeezer, I think there is a flaw in your EPO psychoactive argument. While it may be psychoactive, runners normally are not on EPO *during* competition (well only the dumb ones are). The EPO is eliminated soon after injection and then you're just left with the RBCs which stick around a lot longer.

But I do think the psychology angle is important. The "drug high" you described earlier can also be the feeling of amazement when you improve with little effort. Suddenly things are easy. This creates a positive feedback loop wherein the athletes gains confidence, trains harder, and so on. These benefits can carry on to competition even if the drug is no longer in the body.

But what causes the "drug high" can also be caused without drugs either by placebo effect, or something else. An improvement in the weather, personal relations, getting a long awaited payment, etc etc etc. Suddenly you go from hating the competition to loving it, a huge psychological boost.

noce--

Yes, I know about those on the list, what I was wondering about was especially Cabral's opinion on those "top runners" he says aren't on EPO and who would not benefit from EPO, and who have not tested positive.

noce--

I was referring mostly to the beneficial possible psychoactive effects during training, not during competition, which would enable a greater stimulus and possibly lead to greater adaptation, and better performance ability come race day, as you described in your last paragraph.

However, it is well-known that, at least in the past, there have been many big road races that have done no testing, so it is conceivable that EPO has actually been used in those competitions.

Plus, apparently the neuroprotective mechanism persists for some time after EPO administration.

Possible psychological benefits should never be underestimated. Even the guy who wrote the Outside article, who was applying testosterone in the form of "the cream", felt it.

I have no idea what doing EPO feels like, and I can only guess at what doing roids feels like, based on my assumption of a spiked supplement.

Is there nobody on this board who has ever experimented with EPO? Are there any accounts by admitted EPO-users of any psychoactive effects?

jono--

I have experienced highs from all of those things training both power/strength and endurance. Let me tell you, I trained as LONG and as HARD as anybody, ever.

Let me also tell you that there is another level of high that nobody will ever achieve without drugs, unless they have an incredibly serious chemical imbalance in their brain, or are producing chemicals not found in normal brains.

I'm telling you, it was different. WAY different. You become like the dog who will go up against the bear. There is a feeling of mastery, of control (whether deserved or not),of a certainty that you have, and will do, what it takes to achieve your objective.

It's a cool feeling, not like the great feeling that people get when they do something they've never done before. You can tell the difference on the track, or in any performance--there is no element of surprise, of shock, which is why when dopers win, they can do another lap while everyone clean is lying on the track--because they are not emotionally exhausted by the enormity of the situation. You can hear it in the way people talk--kind of detached. Even if they don't win, there isn't necessarily much hurt expressed--just regret and resolve for the next time.

I could show you any number of recorded situations where athletes exhibit these qualities. The same qualities are observed to some extent in some very psychotic perpetrators of violent crime, hence the "cold-blooded killer".

I do allow for different basic personality types, and there are certainly some people who react differently than others in extraordinary moments--but of course these behavioral cues do not constitute the entirety of evidence. There is also individual performance, placement, performance history, and individual history to consider, along with physiologic assays.

I get incredible highs without drugs Sprintgeezer it comes from a confidence from training and winning races.

World Records will be beaten without drugs, it's inevitable, the power of the mind doesn't need exgogenous chemicals.

VoR wrote:

Runner85 wrote:

If there are diminishing returns on EPO use, than there has to be a point where it stops working, correct?

No. Not correct.

How so? At least in regards to EPO use. People have died from taking too much right? So that seems like a point it doesn't work. I'm not referring to sprintgeezers psychoactive effects, just physiological improvement.

Because blood doping is not as effective. 1) It requires periods in which you have extremely low RBC2) It is a temporary increase in RBC (half-life = 50–55 days)3) You can't control/ titrate the levels as well4) EPO has other non-placebo effects5) It is dangerous due to possible infection

jono wrote:

This obsession with EPO is silly. Why didn't athletes run as fast when blood doping was popular from 1971-1990? It has nothing to do with blood boosting obviously

As for Marion Jones using EPO, she did that because Conte told her too and sold her the stuff to make more money.

Young athletes have no interest in drugs until they become cynical brainwashed adults. Up till that point, they believe in their own natural talent.