Has NXN gone too far?

Beside Myself wrote:

Balboa is a joke for a XC course, and they use it for a National Championship. How many winners at Balboa end up being dominant collegiate runners>

Robert Kennedy did ok.

I'm pretty sure Ritz would have done just as well in college if he ran in San Diego rather than Florida.

That Hasay girl has done pretty well also.

I was surprised to hear that the course was super muddy as I also was running, in Portland, on grass, that day and it wasn't muddy AT ALL where I ran. Yeah, I know that nearby Delta Park was built on a swamp and gets muddy, but I don't know if that is true for the horse park. We've had rain recently in Portland, but it didn't rain continuously last week - we had several days where it didn't rain at all.

Somehow, Nike "watering" the course sounds true to me as generally it wasn't horrendously muddy anywhere else in Portland last weekend.

My brother went two years in a row and said they do pump water onto the course...TOO DANGEROUS.

You guys are freaking idiots

If there was ever a year for Nike to water it down, it was last year. Didn't rain for over a week before the race and ran fairly smoothly. Nike has never once watered down the course (Unless it was before 06 bc that's before I was ever there).

The Nike people spent the day before the race digging out drainage and trying to clear up parts of the course. We had pouring down rains in the evening and the inside of the horse racing track is where the water in that region drains to. Naturally, it collects water. No news there.

Whether or not they've added water to the course is unclear. What is not clear is that they (or their minions--Hoelzherr, Limmer, etc.) have told kids on the course visit on the Friday before the meet that they'd be adding water to the course for Saturday. What is also clear is that they've rerouted the course on the drier years to go through the deepest patches of whatever mud does exist on the end of the course beyond the whoop-de-dos.

I kind of doubt they actually did water the course, but they've tried to leave the impression they have. Hence the confusion on this point.

Since my daughter was running, I volunteered at NXN and was placed about 100 meeters before the finish line. There were a couple of small pumps trying to get water out of that area. For the community race the water was shin deep on some runners and after the first 1k even the leaders were covered in mud. This was the muddiest in the years we've been going out to Portland.

been around for a few NXNs wrote:

Whether or not they've added water to the course is unclear. What is not unclear is that they (or their minions--Hoelzherr, Limmer, etc.) have told kids on the course visit on the Friday before the meet that they'd be adding water to the course for Saturday. What is also clear is that they've rerouted the course on the drier years to go through the deepest patches of whatever mud does exist on the end of the course beyond the whoop-de-dos.

I kind of doubt they actually did water the course, but they've tried to leave the impression they have. Hence the confusion on this point.

Edit: correction in bold

I was at the race as a spectator. Ridiculous conditions. The videos do not accurately show just how bad this was. Nike did nothing to improve the course in the days up to the race. By the time the boys championship was run, the course was so chewed up it was like running in a mine field. As a fan, I didn't want to watch 200 kids slop through a swamp. It was not a competition, rather a survival run. If you are a toe runner, you were screwed from the start.

I posted earlier, but had more to say. As a fan, I felt cheated. I was looking forward to seeing Ryan, Leingang, Montoya et al. have a great competition. What a joke. Kids go to Nike for the team championship, if I were an individual, I would skip it. Chesarak was smart. Some mud is fine, but those that comment that these kids need to "sack up" have no idea how bad this was. Who, in their right mind, would want to run or watch this b.s.

I know the guys who set up the course and I'll guarantee you that no one pumped any water onto the course.The race is basically run on the infield at Portland Meadows and that facility is designed so that water drains off of the horse track onto the infield. It had poured rain the night before.

They had done everything that they could to minimize the mud outside of bringing in sawdust or bark or something to absorb it, and that simply wasn't an option for a one time event.

Nike brought in all of those kids at their expense and treated them VERY well. They got to meet their heroes in the sport, received free merchandise and got to run against top caliber competition. It was a level playing field. The mud was the same for every runner.Either you were prepared for it or you weren't.

Don't fault Nike or race organizers for the mud, blame mother nature.

10/10

Its muddy wrote:

do you think NXN has gone too far with its obsession in tearing apart the nationals course after seeing the times for this years race?

Not at all! XC is not track. Mud is fun! I've slipped and crashed. Lost. Shoes. Finished filthy. Best running experience of my life.

muddy girl wrote:

Somehow, Nike "watering" the course sounds true to me as generally it wasn't horrendously muddy anywhere else in Portland last weekend.

Two things, first I drove by the course the week before and it already had several large areas of water. Second, the course is built out by volunteers the week before and I can assure you that they do not "water" the course. They were in fact pumping water out of the finish area on Thursday (and I know this because I was trying to meet said volunteers for a refreshing beverage and they were running late)

Nikeman, you are correct. Nike did treat all of the athletes extremely well. I attended the race and had seen the course several days prior to the event. I am fully aware that no one pumped water on the course. Mother Nature took care of that. I was just stunned to see little or no effort made to remove water. The mud was the same for every runner, but not an even playing field. Some running styles are not conducive to slogging. I think that those commenting on poor course conditions is incredulous that there isn't an alternative site that would provide a level playing field.

I totally agree. I had given thought to running the open/citizens race that morning until I heard what condition the course was in. Slipping around in mud and worrying about an injury as my age is not my idea of a good time, so I passed.

This is actually a complete embarrassment for Nike and for the sport of cross country as well. If they want to make it an actual national championship, then it should be run on a championship caliber course. Not the infield of a horse track. The mud is beside the point, this course frankly should never hold a national championship. And then dont even get me started on the interviewers trying to coax good remarks about the course out of the runners. It was pretty clear that they were not too thrilled that they raced for a championship in those conditions. If I were Nike, I'd e horrified at the spectacle I put on, because it wasnt a high caliber national meet, it was a spectacle and nothing more.

crosscountryenthusiast wrote:

This is actually a complete embarrassment for Nike and for the sport of cross country as well. If they want to make it an actual national championship, then it should be run on a championship caliber course. Not the infield of a horse track. The mud is beside the point, this course frankly should never hold a national championship. And then dont even get me started on the interviewers trying to coax good remarks about the course out of the runners. It was pretty clear that they were not too thrilled that they raced for a championship in those conditions. If I were Nike, I'd e horrified at the spectacle I put on, because it wasnt a high caliber national meet, it was a spectacle and nothing more.

The course is fine MOST YEARS. This was just one example of the years where it isn't.

From my experience (been at NXN most of the years), and what I've seen of the course...

2007 - Course was muddy but still good

2008 - Course was good and in good condition

2009 - Course was good and in good condition

2010 - Course was sloppy, it seemed to have a noticeable effect on the race... not so good

2011 - Course was good and in good condition

2012 - Course was sloppy, it seemed to have a noticeable effect on the race... not so good

Out of the last six years, half have been muddy and half have been pretty good conditions. Out of those three muddy years, two were so bad that the course played probably too great a role in determining how the race was run (the other year, I don't think the course played a significant role in weeding out the different types of runners - it was an extra challenge, but not an insurmountable one for most everyone)

Which brings us to the question that lots of people have been asking on message boards over the last few days: Is the course at Portland Meadows so bad that it ruins NXN?

In my opinion, almost every year no. And even on those years where it is too muddy, it definitely detracts quite a bit from the event, but it is still the national championship anyone could ask for - a chance for the kids to toe the line on the same day on the same course and compete for their chance to win. Almost every race in the past six years has been fine in that regard (course conditions not so overwhelming as to "weed out" too many runners based on their strengths/weaknesses).

Many not from around the Pacific Northwest might be thinking this extremely muddy conditions is what you see all around here when it starts to rain. That's not true, it does get muddy when it rains (duh) but not so sloppy as you see in the infield at Portland Meadows. Perhaps some arrangement could be made where, in years when it's THIS bad, the race can be run on a different course? I think people would be willing to walk a little longer to the race course than run around (and have the kids run around) in as much muck as was seen this year and in 2010, and on that note... why not consider using the Ft. Vancouver course as a "backup" in those years? It can be a solid course, it was the site of the USATF Championships for three years in the early 00's (2001, 2002, and 2005 if I remember right). Parking is probably the only big deterrent for Nike to use that course in the first place (indoor seating probably isn't a big deal, and it's not like most courses have a plethora of installed restrooms for people to use anyways so that shouldn't be an issue either), and there is plenty of parking at Clark College... it's just about a mile from the course.

This is correct. I was at the meet this year and last, and on Saturday I saw the pump near the finish line. They were definitely pumping water off the course, but it really didn't make any difference by the start of the race as the ground was thoroughly saturated. There was also certainly nothing said by the organizers which would even suggest they pumped water out on the course in either year.

Comments made about finding missing shoes were also much closer to gallows humor than anything else. Given that the course is famous for being wet and at least somewhat muddy in a good year, what are they supposed to say - that the course isn't muddy or that kids don't lose shoes in the mud???! As far as interviewers asking leading questions designed to get kids to talk as though they enjoyed the course, when they really did not, that's ridiculous as well. If you spoke with a kid who did well, then the kid probably said the course was challenging but fair. If you spoke with a kid who ran poorly, then the response was usually that the course was too hard and probably unfair.

Watchout, Fort Vancouver is a fine course (and where I was running last week) and it wasn't muddy. It's an honest course and it can get muddy if it's wet and many races are run on it.

The site hosted the NAIA meet the week prior (so the grass was trampled a bit), but otherwise was in fine shape.

I heard that Nike specifically wanted Portland Meadows in the beginning because the whole race could be viewed indoors, with commentary on tv screens. Spectating at the fort is the old-fashioned kind - you have to run around the course - no flash to that.

U of O (and Nike) tried to the NCAAs (or the regionals) at Portland Meadows and tried to make it a joint bid with U of P, which declined. In the end, the idea was scrapped due to the betting that takes place at the site, I believe. I've run Portland Meadows' course several times - it's kind of gimmicky and not what I consider a real xc course. But when it's wet, the infield gets very muddy and the horse track itself is very slippery. USATF Clubs were there the first year of NXN and it sucked (and I like mud)

There are better courses in the area, but Nike wants to promote it's brand with the event.