NXN>Foot Locker

real xc wrote:

Sorry, but Baxter and Cain at NXN and NOT at Footlocker just shows you what they think of that little Southern Cal. time trial.

FL may not be dead yet, but it is not what it once was. The shine is starting to fade.

Yeah and Cheserek being at FL shows what he thinks about NXN. You can't just pull the top 1 or 2 as a show of field strength. You have to look at depth and for anyone to argue NXN comes anywhere close to FL is insane.

NXN not as deep, but better wrote:

Cheseret showed he was a choke artist.

All Cheserek showed is that the coach at his HS is terrible. The Kenyan kid's been poorly trained and heavily overraced; he's just so good that he's still among the all time high school best in our country. Look back at some of those early articles about him and his steeple/10k PRs. Couple that w/ the 1:52/4:01 type speed he's shown and tell me how he isn't way better?

Because the coaches at his silly NJ prep school don't know how to coach!

real xc wrote:

Keg Stand wrote:

What? The overall strength of the field is far better at FL than NXN.

Good luck with those predictions of FL's demise. The Nike employees and shills have been declaring FL dead for 5 years now, so it makes sense that you'd want to tack on another 5 years to try to make that absurd prediction eventually come true. That's OK, we'll let you come back here in 2017 to say FL will be dead within 5 more years. Still won't happen, but as long as it makes you feel better.

Sorry, but Baxter and Cain at NXN and NOT at Footlocker just shows you what they think of that little Southern Cal. time trial.

FL may not be dead yet, but it is not what it once was. The shine is starting to fade.

So why didn't you mention Cheserek and the boys? I guess NXN isn't quite shining with the luster that you'd want everybody to believe.

As a point of clarification: THE NIKE SWAG IS NOT FREE!!! The kids get a certain amount dependent on their home state rules, usually around $100. Anything above that amount, each athlete has to pay for it. Total cost around $600.

Dennis Reynolds wrote:

Yeah and Cheserek being at FL shows what he thinks about NXN. You can't just pull the top 1 or 2 as a show of field strength. You have to look at depth and for anyone to argue NXN comes anywhere close to FL is insane.

Look at Bill Meylan's (Tully Runners) speed rating for the boys FL and NXN finals for 2011. While the highest rated runner was Cheserek at 210 who ran FL, the 40th runner at FL was rated 169. At NXN Nationals the top finisher was 203 but the 40th was 185. You had to go all the way to the 130th runner at NXN to find a speed rating of 169 or, put another way, the NXN final had three times as many runners rated at 170 or better than did FL. By this calculus, last year there was a lot more depth in the NXN event than there was in FL. We'll have to wait and see about this year but I wager the trend (of talent migrating to the NXN event) will continue.

Orxcfan wrote:

As a point of clarification: THE NIKE SWAG IS NOT FREE!!! The kids get a certain amount dependent on their home state rules, usually around $100. Anything above that amount, each athlete has to pay for it. Total cost around $600.

Having had a team there, it is free. Some states have regulations regarding getting free stuff. So, our AD sold it back to the kids at a very low price, and took the proceeds and put it into our account, a low revenue fund raiser.

Stop kidding yourself, I've also had kids qualify for Fl 4 times, it was nice the first time, but will never go back now that NXN is here.

I've seen the cost of the equipment they get, it's over $600 worth.

My Washington state athlete that competes in a few different elite events a year can only afford to bring home a couple of items from this meet, the total equaling less than $100. Washington state (WIAA) is strict about the allowance of freebies.

Baxter and Cain chose NXN because it is guaranteed. Baxter qualified from state. If she had to choose FL or NXN regional qualifier it might be a different story. Really though she'd probably do neither.

If FL took the top 10 from CA state meet you'd have a battle. Nike might need to be in the finish shoots recruiting kids to choose their race.

Rustamon wrote:

Look at Bill Meylan's (Tully Runners) speed rating for the boys FL and NXN finals for 2011. While the highest rated runner was Cheserek at 210 who ran FL, the 40th runner at FL was rated 169. At NXN Nationals the top finisher was 203 but the 40th was 185. You had to go all the way to the 130th runner at NXN to find a speed rating of 169 or, put another way, the NXN final had three times as many runners rated at 170 or better than did FL. By this calculus, last year there was a lot more depth in the NXN event than there was in FL. We'll have to wait and see about this year but I wager the trend (of talent migrating to the NXN event) will continue.

You seriously took last place at one meet and compared it to the upper middle pack of another? Places 1,10,20 and 30 were all better at FL. Isn't it kind of obvious that NXN is a great team competition and Footlocker is a great individual showcase. this is like arguing whether the NBA Finals is a better competition than the slam dunk competition. Two totally different purposes.

Using last year's results, I took the top 10 seniors that only ran at Foot Locker and the top 10 seniors that only ran at NXN. I then looked up what their best Florating was in NCAA cross country was this year:

Footlocker

McClintock: 216.7

Fahy: 202.1

Weitz: 201.7

Graham: 201

Rog: 198.8

Ball: 189.3

Lennon: 186.2

Wilson: 182.8

Farnsworth: N/A

Bile: N/A

NXN

Guijarro: 204.1

Yorks: 196

Herriott: 178.1

Blankenbaker: 163.8

Diaz: N/A

Armstrong: N/A

Visokay: N/A

Crozier: N/A

Martinez: N/A

Erb: N/A

Rustamon wrote:

Look at Bill Meylan's (Tully Runners) speed rating for the boys FL and NXN finals for 2011.

The speed ratings for nike were way overrated.

Please tell me how you're going to get 40 guys who aren't even the best on their high school teams, to run faster than the 40 best high school runners in the whole country!

There is no way to do that, unless you finagle the results.

on the nike payroll wrote:

Rustamon wrote:

Look at Bill Meylan's (Tully Runners) speed rating for the boys FL and NXN finals for 2011.

The speed ratings for nike were way overrated.

Please tell me how you're going to get 40 guys who aren't even the best on their high school teams, to run faster than the 40 best high school runners in the whole country!

There is no way to do that, unless you finagle the results.

Actually, I think the ratings for Nike were a bit underrated.

And the top 40 at NXN were almost strictly the best runners on their high school teams... and the 40 guys at Nike aren't the top 40 guys in the nation.

That said, it's probably better to compare the average of the top 30 (or so) rather than the top 40... because it is inevitable that someone is going to have "off" days, especially when put in these kinds of situations. And runners having "off" days at Nike are not finishing in the top 40.

watchout wrote:

the top 40 at NXN were almost strictly the best runners on their high school teams... and the 40 guys at Nike aren't the top 40 guys in the nation.

Go back to Portland.

I will if I'm not sick.

but a minor correction on my post: should have said "the top 40 guys at Footlocker aren't the top 40 guys in the nation", as the other poster said. Obviously, any rational person can see that when looking at the results of the two meets - the best 40 are split between the meets, and some others might not have even been able to qualify.

on the nike payroll wrote:

The speed ratings for nike were way overrated.

Please tell me how you're going to get 40 guys who aren't even the best on their high school teams, to run faster than the 40 best high school runners in the whole country!

There is no way to do that, unless you finagle the results.

You misunderstand the facts Mr. "On the Nike Payroll" [not]. Of the top 20 guys at NXN in 2011, 18 were individual qualifiers. They were all the best for their respective schools and among the 40 best in the country. The fact that these guys run NXN supports my point. NXN is increasingly attracting the best runners. One team did place three in the top 40 - Lincroft - better known as CBA out of NJ. They may successfully defend this year. That's what this sport is all about Numbnuts. I have no interest in Nike as a company although I do think their format is better.

Rustamon wrote:

"On the Nike Payroll"

That's what this sport is all about Numbnuts.

Let's say Nike was paying people to abuse women and children (see the parallel here), and they were successfully abusing more and more women and children each year.

Perhaps that is true, and perhaps it isn't true. We know what Nike wants people to believe, but regardless of what Nike wants, it is not the best course of action.

In terms of individual talent, it's been split pretty evenly over the last several years when you look at the top boys and girls. I don't see a major swing in either direction that some think they see or want to happen. It's probably not a popular opinion around here, but both races may just co-exist at this pretty balanced level for quite a few years to come.

Team Troma wrote:

In terms of individual talent, it's been split pretty evenly over the last several years when you look at the top boys and girls.

False! As a measure of the popularity of NXN, we have seen that for 2011, 18 of the top twenty boys ran as individual qualifiers. For the girls, it was 12. As a measure of increasing popularity, I have created a table [below] covering the last several years [before 2008 the event was called NTN, T is for Team, and individuals were not allowed to compete unattached]. These top individual runners were, as a rule, all potential FL qualifiers before being allowed to run in the Nike event.

Year Boys Girls

2011 18 12

2010 10 11

2009 13 10

2008 9 9

2007 0 0

Rustamon wrote:

Team Troma wrote:

In terms of individual talent, it's been split pretty evenly over the last several years when you look at the top boys and girls.

False! As a measure of the popularity of NXN, we have seen that for 2011, 18 of the top twenty boys ran as individual qualifiers. For the girls, it was 12. As a measure of increasing popularity, I have created a table [below] covering the last several years [before 2008 the event was called NTN, T is for Team, and individuals were not allowed to compete unattached]. These top individual runners were, as a rule, all potential FL qualifiers before being allowed to run in the Nike event.

Year Boys Girls

2011 18 12

2010 10 11

2009 13 10

2008 9 9

2007 0 0

Wonderful, but I'm talking about looking at rankings of the top say 25 boys and girls runners overall in the country and seeing where they ultimately raced - FL and/or NXN.