Speedwork the day before a race?

If the workout is 6x400, as you said, then I'm assuming it is done at 5k pace, which should be actually an easy session. I prefer 200s @ race pace the day before a meet, but 400s @5k pace still seem like a jog, especially if adequate rest is involved like 200m-400m walk/jog.

Now for the logic?? I assume that coach is getting the kids used to running at race pace, which is great because I have some athletes still running 515-520 first mile when they are running 1730 3mile (550pace!!).

there are some HS coaches who subscribe to the idea that even a hard speed session the day before a meet is beneficial. I think maybe the Southlake Carroll team in TX does this, if I'm recalling something I read last year about it. I think it's their interpretation of Paavo training?

Interesting concept.

I remember a coach who had his runners run these 400s the morning of Michigan state finals. He's pretty sure his team did as well as 2nd place because of that. I'm pretty sure he didn't get 1st because of that.

Different things work for different people and different teams. Context (summer training, previous weeks' work in the fall, etc.) matters a lot. Personally, I had success with doing a "tempo set" the day before, e.g. 3 x 600 at race pace, walk 200 recovery--three mile race the next day.

Another example: adapted from a post at

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3557525&page=1--Jim

Ryun's training, junior year in high school.

Cross Country [October 5 to October 11, 1963] 75 miles for the week

======================================

Saturday (Oct 5) [16 miles]

AM 16 miles @ 6:08 pace (hills & rough terrain)

kicking in pool to finish

Sunday (Oct 6) [5 miles]

PM 5 miles

Monday (Oct 7) [9.5 miles]

AM 3 miles - strides

PM warm up 1 mile jog

calisthenics

wind sprints (4x120 and 4x60)

1x1 mile @ 4:23 pace

calisthenics as recovery

3x880 @ 2:45 average pace

cables (running against resistance of a stretching cable attached to fence during "rest" period between 880s)

4x440 @ 69 average pace

warm down 1 mile jog

wind sprints (4x120 and 4x60)

warm down 1 mile jog

weights

Tuesday (Oct 8) [15.5 miles]

AM 4 miles - strides

PM warm up 1 mile jog

6x1500 (hills)

3 regular @ 4:59 average pace

3 reverse @ 5:04 average pace

warm down 1 mile jog

wind sprints (4x120 and 4x60)

warm down 1 mile jog

kicking in pool

Wednesday (Oct 9) [16 miles]

AM 4 miles - strides

PM warm up 1 mile jog

8x440 @ 71 average pace (on 3:00)

1 mile jog

8x440 @ 70 average pace

1 mile jog

8x440 @ 70 average pace

1 mile jog

8x440 @ 68 average pace

warm down 1 mile jog

weights

kicking in pool

Thursday--DAY BEFORE MEET (Oct 10) [9 miles]

AM 3 miles - strides

PM warm up 1 mile jog

10x220 @ 30 average pace

calisthenics

10x220 @ 30 average pace

cables

10x220 @ 33 average pace

warm down 1 mile jog

wind sprints (4x120 and 4x60)

warm down 1 mile jog

kicking in pool

Friday (Oct 11) [4 miles]

AM warm up 1 mile jog

PM CROSS COUNTRY MEET (2 miler)

warm down 1 mile jog

My HS team would often do a short fartlek workout the day before a big cross country meet. I still like to do some short pickups in my run the day before a race. A little pace work is good, but I agree the repeats should be pretty short in duration.

Thanks for the replies.

Just to clarify, I am not questioning the speed session. I am more trying to understand why the coach would do it the day before the meet instead of say, on Thursday, and use Friday as an easy day. That seems more like my HS and college coaches worked things.

Just because there is a small amount of race pace work incorporated into a workout, does not mean the workout is hard.

Some of the workouts We've done prior to meets look like this

3 mile progressive warm up, + 5 x 300 @ 3k pace, full recovery

or

1 mile warm up, 4 x 800 @ tempo pace / 30-45 seconds recovery + 4 x 200 @ mile race pace with full recovery. (Did this one before our section championship 3 years ago when we took 4th, barely missing 3rd and a state meet berth, despite going in as the 8th qualifier).

There are lots of ways to stimulate all of the body's energy systems without putting undue stress on the body while doing so.

Uncle Systematic wrote:

Thanks for the replies.

Just to clarify, I am not questioning the speed session. I am more trying to understand why the coach would do it the day before the meet instead of say, on Thursday, and use Friday as an easy day. That seems more like my HS and college coaches worked things.

Two days before the race is actually a more important recovery day than the day before.

It is not unusual to do speed workouts the day before competition. It was done back in my day.

Sounds like your son's speed work would be considered "light" by my standards-which is a good thing.

For me, it was a double edge sword because it really helped my stay sharp but it hindered me later in the season as I often got stale.

Best advice, monitor your son's mid and late season workout and race performances. If he tails off and peaks too early, then he needs to eliminate those speed workouts.

Personally, I do not believe in any running of any kind (including an easy recovery run) the day prior to an important race. If you wish to perform at peak ability, do not run the day prior.

For Friday, I would think the coach would prefer the kids to be tip top for an invitational cross country meet versus racing on tired legs.

As for Monday, I vote for an easy day prior to a dual meet.

Bottom line: The coach is having the kids run back-to-back hard run days (twice a week). WRONG.

markboen wrote:

Personally, I do not believe in any running of any kind (including an easy recovery run) the day prior to an important race. If you wish to perform at peak ability, do not run the day prior.

For Friday, I would think the coach would prefer the kids to be tip top for an invitational cross country meet versus racing on tired legs.

As for Monday, I vote for an easy day prior to a dual meet.

Bottom line: The coach is having the kids run back-to-back hard run days (twice a week). WRONG.

Well, different things work for different people, and you're welcome to your opinion. Mine differs.

1) As someone observed above, Thursday is (for *most*) the more important recovery day before a Saturday distance race. BITD if we took a day off before a marathon, it was the day-before-the-day-before: Friday, for a Sunday race.

[Now for a high-lactate race, say 400 to mile, we'd be more likely to get a small lactate load two days before the race; take the day before easy; then, on race day, get a brief morning session: warmup and some kind of turnover stuff. Worked for us.]

2) The day before any distance race that's going to involve some kind of speed, a modest amount of pace work seems to help a lot of runners. (This is because there's more involved in fast running than just energy stores: there are neuromuscular concerns, as well.) I had a clubmate whose college coach always had them run a five-minute mile i.e. race pace or just slightly faster.

The day before a cross-country race; as noted above, I've had success with things like 3 x 600, or even running some 500s or 700s or 900s--distances in which nobody has any emotion invested, and hence will be able to focus on pacing rather than (semi-)racing.

3) There's also evidence that *very* brief bursts within 24 hours of a race may be helpful. For instance--after an appropriate warmup--a few sprints of maybe 5-6secs duration, with complete recoveries between (i.e. truly alactic). These may be even more productive if done uphill, *provided* they're not the first hillwork (or sprints, for that matter) in weeks!

These could be done the day before a race--preceding any pace reps, if those are also going to be done--or some hours before, on the day *of* a race.

good food for thought. thanx for posting this stuff

If I remember correctly, from Fred Moore, coach at Phoenix College in Phoenix, Az., after he talked with Pierre Deleze, swiss 1500m runner, with pr of 3:31.75 while beating Seb Coe in 1985, about how he trained to beat Coe.

Deleze said he noticed how good he felt the next day after a fast 1200m workout so he kept the same routine before Zurich that year. The day before beating Coe he did a 2:52 1200.

Fred incorporated a 1200 the day before meets into his xc program that year and his girls won nationals. One girl didn't do it and said after the race that her legs felt heavy during the race.

Not sure if a fast 1200m qualifies as speed, but how did the subject kids of this post run on race day? How did they feel?

I also feel better for racing the day after a speed workout. And, it doesn't have to be a hard speed workout. Just something to remind the body of what's to come. Kinda like a mini time trial.

Here is a tapering study that used 400 m race pace intervals exclusively that worked out well- not sure about the day before.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0267b.htm

Even though it's a short race, the day prior to an important one I might have them do a 3 min hard run followed by a 30 sec sprint then send them home to load up on carbohydrate.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/carbo-loading-managing-your-glycogen-intake-without-overloading-on-glucose-65?#

I found that I had much more consistent performances in college if I did a little speed the day before. My pre-race day would be a shorter easy run followed by 200-150-100-50 at 1500 pace (with full recovery). Nothing too hard, but just enough to make sure I had some pop in my legs on race day.

There are many who think that doing this kind of speed the day before a race helps performance by ensuring that you have higher muscle tension. Check out this article:

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/03/key-to-running-fast-on-race-day-muscle.html

John Lenihan, who was World Mountain Running champ and a 1:01 or 1:02 half marathoner, did exactly what your coach has his kids doing. He just felt like doing a little bit of faster running on the day before the race left him feeling sharper than not doing it.

Could you please cite the reference for your "evidence that *very* brief bursts within 24 hours of a race may be helpful?" I would love to see a study (or two) on this topic.

No study needed. It's obvious. Have faith grasshopper.