Webb Officially in Trials 5k

I didn't remember this stuff when I started saying that someone is going to start throwing lawsuits around, but clearly this stuff is corrupt if everything in that running times article is true. I read up on Shannon Butler's case -

- and it is more of the same. I'd like to see Webb in this race for my own selfish reasons, but you cannot run an event of this caliber and pull these tricks. The other runners that had a better time have a legitimate reason to be angry and you can't deny that. I don't care how much John Chaplin thinks that they are clowns and have no chance. There needs to be more transparency. It sounds like the rules have been bent in a new way this time around since Alan was allowed to petition his way into the race before the 48 hour petition period.

We're going on 5 Olympic cycles of problems like this (I'm sure even more). Is there anyone sane running that asylum? They need more transparency - clear procedures, clear rules, clear loopholes for superstars, whatever. The problem isn't that Alan or Goucher won't be competitive, it is that there are not clear distinctions or processes. Hell, at least require a written response from the appeals committee with their reasoning so that there is something keeping them accountable. Put the appeals process online so that it is documented and not on a pad of paper that John Chaplin hands you 10 minutes before he has to leave. It appears to anyone removed from the situation that it all depends on lining John Chaplin's pockets (cough, Nike, cough).

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Every time we have a situation like this we make our sport into gymnastics or figure skating where subjective judging reigns supreme. One of the beautiful things about track and field, one of the things that I love, is that there is objectivity to it. You are what the stop watch says you are.

They will run a race that includes everyone who has run the Trials A standard and a few guys who have run the Trials B standard and the top 3 finishers who have the Olympic standard will get to run in the Olympics. Seems pretty objective to me.

it is objective wrote:

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Every time we have a situation like this we make our sport into gymnastics or figure skating where subjective judging reigns supreme. One of the beautiful things about track and field, one of the things that I love, is that there is objectivity to it. You are what the stop watch says you are.

They will run a race that includes everyone who has run the Trials A standard and a few guys who have run the Trials B standard ( and that the judges like or rate their past accomplishments ) and the top 3 finishers who have the Olympic standard will get to run in the Olympics. Seems pretty objective to me.

My point is that no one is going to the Olympics based on a judge's ruling.

it is objective wrote:

My point is that no one is going to the Olympics based on a judge's ruling.

But someone is going to the Olympic trials based on beauty contest scoring.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

But someone is going to the Olympic trials based on beauty contest scoring.

And if he's not good enough to make the team, he won't make the team. The whole point of the event is to select the Olympic team. No one who doesn't deserve to be on the team is going to be on the team.

but it isn't fair and equal. even if webb gets in, the guy in 4th place has a legitimate reason to feel wronged. he peaked enough earlier in the season to hit the standard. Webb didn't. what if his peaking earlier took away from his form for this race? I'm sure Webb didn't run the 5k last week because he wanted to peak at the right time and not go chase the qualifier. The guy that had to chase the qualifier at some point followed the rules and would get screwed. they have to be more transparent and follow a clear process.

call my lawyer wrote:

what if his peaking earlier took away from his form for this race?

If somebody peaked so early that it hurts their shot at making the Olympic team, how well are they going to run at the Olympic? That's the point, right? To put together the team that will perform best at the Olympics.

I do see what you're saying. Clearer rules would help. But ultimately it seems like having a race that includes everyone who has a chance at making the team and then taking the top three is about as objective an Olympic selection process as we could have.

it is objective wrote:

But ultimately it seems like having a race that includes everyone who has a chance at making the team and then taking the top three is about as objective an Olympic selection process as we could have.

Yes, everybody wants this. The only issue is how do you decide "who has a chance at making the team." Seems like the objective way to do that is to rank them according to their times in the event. Seems about as objective a process as we could have.

it is objective wrote:

If somebody peaked so early that it hurts their shot at making the Olympic team, how well are they going to run at the Olympic? That's the point, right? To put together the team that will perform best at the Olympics.

I completely agree. I'm just trying to point out that the USATF's decision to not allow runners to chase the A standard after the trials has ramifications.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Yes, everybody wants this. The only issue is how do you decide "who has a chance at making the team." Seems like the objective way to do that is to rank them according to their times in the event. Seems about as objective a process as we could have.

If there is a question as to whether an individual has a chance at making the team, it seems to me that letting that individual run is the way to go. If you let them run and they make it, they obviously did have a chance. If you let them run and they don't make it, so what? That's what a prelim or tryout is for. Taking a large number of people who might be good enough and weeding them down to a small number of people who are good enough.

Why do people keep on thinking that the only way to qualify is by time? Have you ever heard of USATF Rule 8?

USATF Rule 8:

Track and Field.

(a) During the current or four previous calendar years, earned an individual medal in track and field in an Olympic Games or in an IAAF World Indoor or Outdoor Championship.

(b) Is the reigning USA Indoor or Outdoor champion.

(c) Has a World or Olympic ‘A’ Standard that would apply to the current championship team selection.

(d) Finish as one of the top three at the preceding year’s corresponding national championship (Indoor qualifies for Indoor, Outdoor qualifies for Outdoor).

it is objective wrote:

If there is a question as to whether an individual has a chance at making the team, it seems to me that letting that individual run is the way to go. If you let them run and they make it, they obviously did have a chance. If you let them run and they don't make it, so what? That's what a prelim or tryout is for. Taking a large number of people who might be good enough and weeding them down to a small number of people who are good enough.

Or you accept people who have provided actual evidence that they have a shot at making the team. If they want to let in every qualifier down to Alan Webb and make an extra heat, I'm fine with that. All those guys have offered more proof that they have a chance to make the team than Webb has. Webb shouldn't have special entry rights based on what he did in 2004-2007.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

it is objective wrote:

But ultimately it seems like having a race that includes everyone who has a chance at making the team and then taking the top three is about as objective an Olympic selection process as we could have.

Yes, everybody wants this. The only issue is how do you decide "who has a chance at making the team." Seems like the objective way to do that is to rank them according to their times in the event. Seems about as objective a process as we could have.

You're ignoring the fact that Alan ran 13:49 at Payton Jordan 40 minutes after running 3:37, basis for argument in his petition for entry.

You guys need to do something more productive with your day, it's a done deal. How about arguing over which of the remaining pending men should be admitted in relation to each other? That hasn't been settled yet.

Maybe if he had just sacked up and run a decent race this year nobody would question it. I like that he's running so everyone can see that he is officially done.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Or you accept people who have provided actual evidence that they have a shot at making the team. If they want to let in every qualifier down to Alan Webb and make an extra heat, I'm fine with that. All those guys have offered more proof that they have a chance to make the team than Webb has. Webb shouldn't have special entry rights based on what he did in 2004-2007.

No they haven't. Having a faster time doesn't equate absolutely to having a better chance to make the team.

All this bickering. I'm quite glad he got let in, the race is going to be a lot more exciting with him in it.

You're ignoring the fact that Alan ran 13:49 at Payton Jordan 40 minutes after running 3:37, basis for argument in his petition for entry.

You guys need to do something more productive with your day, it's a done deal. How about arguing over which of the remaining pending men should be admitted in relation to each other? That hasn't been settled yet.

This same fact of course might be construed as a basis for why he shouldn't be included in the Trials. Rather than just hitting the A-standard in the 5000, he ran the 1500 and 5000. Suppose someone went out and ran 1:46 for the 800, then 40minutes later ran 28:50 for the 10K, and then said "yo, check out my 800 time, it's da bomb, and my 10K time is good enough, so let me in those trials."

Personally, I would say "Good job on that 800 brah, but naw brah. Run that A-time if you want to be all up in the trials."

Good point about which pending men should be admitted. Since we are already letting in people on the basis of considering their back to back races, we can't just look at the 5K times alone. We gots to consider other factors, such as...

1. Did they run any races before the time listed.

2. Did they taper for their time?

3. What did they eat for breakfast? You know that a 13:49 after a bowl of frostin flakes and OJ is way better than a 13:49 after just oatmeal.

4. Further irrelevant consideration

I believe Julia is due to give birth during the Trials, so allowing him in gives this a media angle to be exploited by NBC and the Today Show.

I don't agree with allowing him in based on his petition, but that is the USATF for you. It raises eyebrows when a Nike athlete, Goucher, Webb, gets their petition granted, but I've yet to hear or see a thread on here of an athlete from another shoe company petitioning and getting turned down.

Let's just sit back and see how he does Monday in the heats of the 5,000 since all this back-and-forth doesn't change the fact he is part of the 5,000 field.