Mr. Renato Canova: Could You Please Answer a Question About Effective Ways to Improve the Lactate Threshold?
A few points i agree with you. First i would prefer to win a gold medal in my 1st Olympic games and not just after 12 years of my first participation. As i agree with you that we don´t know the future.
But in many points you are wrong or have the wrong data.
Recently in this same thread i did call the attention what´s the running class of the runner that we are talking about. I´ve said that i would put El Guerrouj or Gebre in the 1st world category, but Lopes in the second, and Marius in the 4th. I still keep my original idea.
You see each running career have a start and development and and an end, and TARGETS - that may be equal or different from one runner to another runner.
We portuguese we change any PB or a good performance for a win or a good race result.
You are wrong about the portuguese runners that took part of my inquiry. And no foreign did participate in this inquire. You based your conclusions by just the performances and PB´s, but among the portuguese are runners that did perform in a level that Marius didn´t yet.
Carlos Lopes didn´t pass 2 olympics or 11 years to get a silver medal in the olympics. He did first 1972 olympics and no more than 5000m and 10000m heats, like Marius did twice, but in his second olympics he did 2nd in 10000m final. In that same 1976 year he did win World Cross Country. Next Olympics ther´s the boycott, so Lopes didn´t participate. But meanwhile he did a second in 1977 WCC - win European team CCC and in 1982 he did 4th in 10000m in the European champs, and in 1983 he once again a 2nd in the WCC did win once again in 1984. In 1982 he did 10000m european record.
In the next 1984 olympics he did win te gold medal in the marathon and did 27:17 in 10000m and also did win WCC champ. In 1985 he did win once again the WCC and did marathon WR 2:07:12 and did win a second time the team ECC medal. During tjhis period he did win 2 S. Silvester races and douzens and douzens of top crosses, top class road runs.
Now, it´s up to you to say to me what did Marius in the last 2 olympics or WChamps or EChamps or any other run, or any other big win indoor or outdoor, cross, road or track, that i may relate with Lopes palmares ?
You see, among portuguese runners that did the inquire are runners like those :
Olimpic medals: Lopes, Rui Silva, Antonio Leitao
World medals: Rui Silva (1500m and 3000m indoors), Domingos Castro (5000m), Joao Campos (3000m indoors)
European medals: Antonio Pinto (10000m); Rui Silva, Joao Campos (3000m indoors), Mario Silva (1500m)
WCC medals: Lopes, Paulo Guerra (3rd in WCC)
ECC medals: Paulo Guerra (4times ECCchamp and 2 times second); Eduardo Henriques; Domingos Castro
World records: Lopes (marathon); Mamede (10000m); Dionisio Castro (20000 track)
European records: Lopes (10000); Mamede (10000m 3 times); Antonio Pinto (10000m and marathon).
Just to mention our e 5000m track record by Antonio Pinto that´s 13:03, don´t forget that.
I don't think so. I realize cross country was never Geb's specialty, but look at the guys who beat him, some of the best
in history. But who knows -- there are so many factors in cross -- it makes Bekele all the more impressive.
When I was plodding through mud yesterday at a ridiculously slow pace, I was thinking how incredibly well Bekele maintains his stride efficiency in such conditions.
Leg strength specific to the race pace and conditions, is something that tends to be overlooked in all these discussions about training and racing paces.
This year I did the LT (I-AT) at much more precision than ever - more of it and at a higher frequency throughout the week.
I was challenged a year ago to change some of my training to a more intensity based model ("normal distance model"), but luckily I decided to go with what I believe in and to do that even better instead.
Problem is with LT training -when you want it to be really, really potent ; it takes precision ALL THE TIME, it makes the winter training much more boring than with the faster stuff and you got to be very, very patient. The major lift comes when you manage to develop the AT base from the winter into running aerobic at a lactate level where most people run on their anaerobic system (metabolism) in the summer (keeping the triggered fat metabolism, higher concentration of enzymes 5-HAD, Citrate Synthase from the winter etc) This in a real key ; the AT training is only a component needed to develope the high end "aerobic" system. If you do not know how to make this transition when the summer comes you will burn yourself into the anaerobic modus quite fast and not get the results you could have. In that case you might as well have trained normal distance training during the winter. Therefore precision in the summer is equally important. Racing alot will for example help the anaerobic system-guys but not a whole lot those (few) with a real high end aerobic system in the bottom.
Lopes in his prime would have shown Geb a clean pair of heals in cross country AND the marathon (going by Geb's career so far in the marathon).
Watch a video of the 1985 World Cross and you will see why. Lopes was "one of the best in history" to use your term. If we say that cross country was not Geb's speciality as some sort of excuse, then we can say that track and field was not Lopes' speciality - a ridiculous excuse if we are trying to look at things objectively.
Lopes' Rotterdam marathon WR 2-07-12 in 1985 was a solo effort having drunk a bottle of wine and eaten a steak just two hours before the start. Geb by comparison was talking about not drinking enough energy drinks as the reason for why he lost to Khannouchi and Tergat in London 2002 to show the difference in resources athletes have at their disposal these days. If you think that he could not have run much more than 1 minute faster with an army of pacemakers and proper preparation then you are very much mistaken. Look at his run in Los Angeles a tough course, horrible heat and humidity and horrible pollution (look at what the condontions did to Ovett)- NO ONE has run faster in the Olympics since.
I am a Geb fan but I doubt that he will ever produce such an Olympic performance in the marathon.
As I said before, Lopes was a lot better than you realise.
will your opinion about Geb v. Lopes change at all should he run 2:04 or faster?
Marius I applaud your great year! The question I have for you is this:
You are a 5000m runner. This event is about 90% aerobic where you are extremely strong. However when you race the 5000m you are not in the aerobic zone. I understand how making your AeT close to your AT is very important to all paces but this seems more Marathon or 1/2 marathon specific (even 10,000). How does your body respond to surges during 5000m competition that are very anerobic. How do you address the Idea that your lactate concentrations during the 5000m (4:10 per mile for you, Damn fast:) )are much higher than during your training at 4:40 per mile at 3.0 mmol if I understand what you have seen from you training.
I'm not trying to put down your training at all. I want to understand it better.
Problem is with LT training -when you want it to be really, really potent ; it takes precision ALL THE TIME, it makes the winter training much more boring than with the faster stuff and you got to be very, very patient. The major lift comes when you manage to develop the AT base from the winter into running aerobic at a lactate level where most people run on their anaerobic system (metabolism) in the summer (keeping the triggered fat metabolism, higher concentration of enzymes 5-HAD, Citrate Synthase from the winter etc) This in a real key ; the AT training is only a component needed to develope the high end "aerobic" system.
I´m confined to comment your race results - that results are are public information and you can´t turn that so secretive as you do with your trainibg schedule, and as result of your secretism all your training considerations are a of bla..bla..bla...because since we don´t have acess to the sources all your training considerations as the ones you made above turn on to the thoery field.
Thus, commenting this one your season by the resulsts, i refuse to admit that you think that you did train in the right direction. How can such a failure be considered positive ? You did start the season working progressively and did good 5000m performances up to 13:06 PB early in the season. But you also did define as 2004 peak target season the olympics. Often you claim that your training that´s agoal that´s - peak season. Since that i read your site that your pay a great concern with the peak season You considfer yourself a peak "master" - someone that trains mainly with consideration to be in peak shpe condition in the right moment - that don´t compete too much, do very often and systematic and accurate tests to control and manage your shape along the season.
What i saw in my TV in the Olympics ? You were the 6th all time PB and the 2nd season PB from all the runners that did enter in your 2nd heat in the olympics that you try to qualified for the final.
What it happens there ? You end in 12th place with an obscure and anonimous 13:36:32 that for a 13:06 means that i expect that you will be able to do that 13:36 almost in AT pace in a somewhere sea-level workout. But you did that in the olympics, not in a your hard workout.
For me with all respect it was quite "pathetic" to see you try to lead and push the pace near the 2600m and less than one lap ahed in a slower heat up to that point - the 3000m split were 8:10:11 - you did strive hardly to keep o the pack to fall down in a obscure 12th place loosing contact withy the leaders. What a desilusion - at leat for me !
That´s when i undrestood that it must something really wrong, that´s not just a bad day. Most of your big competitions are like that - poor results. that´s when i undrestood that you will never get your targets - to do good in continental games, and since i don´t remember what are your wins in big competitions you are just a chrono runner, and a regular looser.
If that´s me or a my runner, I will be in shame, what a poor performance, in Athens you gave the idea that you would never made that qualifying. That also made me ask what did happen ? Is the training wrong ? But you always claim that AT bla...bla...bla...: So if that´s not training that´s a wrongrace strategy wrong ? But you also claims that you are also a race "tactic" expert that in some occasions you did advise some runners how to win strategic races. So, if that´s not the race and that´s not the run startegy what´s that poor performances ? Lack of talent. No You did 13:06 early in the season. A bad day, that heat or humidity enables you to run at your capacity. But, don´t you did ppay lots of attention to special hats and weather adaptation. So, what shall be?
One more aspect made me to think about what´s the interest to believe that you training properly - is that it seems that you move on without a serious analysis of your failure, that you may claim that your training is good that no one belives in that - at leat i don´t, how can a good train give so poor results in terms of peaking ?
I advise you sincerly to do a deep analysis of your regualar failures if you want to turn on a better runner or you will fall down dramatically in what i consider 4th world category, a runner that will be remembered a a mere statistic name and a figure.
But if - as usual - you think that you are right and i´m wrong, keep on going in your trainig beliefs, AT and all that stuff. I will be here to see the results - the real prove of training concepts.
PS - If i would a your competer i would say "go on Marius, congratulations" so wrongly i think that your training are and would try to made you believe that you are in the right direction i would contribute that you would loose for me.
PS2 - For a guy that refuses systematically to show his own schedule, that big surprise for me that you come to a different site than your own to made us know that you have a copy of the Coe training schedule "hand-made" and you are at our disposition to let us know Coe training diary. You are at our disposition to call directly to Coe or coe´s father. What a surprise...you want to made public Coe schedule this time without the affraid that average runners did copy Coe schedule with the wrong consequences that it will be if people copies your own schedules and your workouts.
Antonio you was a runner once and now a coach, calling him a loser because he didn't succeed, is a very stupid comment. Did you ASK him personally what went wrong? You can't just assume things you don't know without facts first...was he sick? injured?
What if he can't handle the pressure and the mental part, who are you to call him loser?
It seems to me you compare Marius to guys like Lopes and Mamede, it's a different era, the world record is under 12.40 now and you are wondering why Marius doesn't have any medals....
I never read that Marius claims he's master or expert on peaking, tactics etc...so that's just BS coming out of your mouth.
Antonio, I cant believe youre putting down his training methods, youre missing a key point of coaching. The schedule must be made to fit the athlete, not the other way around. What works for some wont work for others. Silva has done very well under your system, and it obviously is effective. But the same system WONT work for everyone. Hicham trains near his threshold very often, similar to Marius, and you cant argue his results. Do you think he would have done better under your system? I think not, he found what works for him. Im sure Marius knows what kind of training his body responds to, you dont run 13:06 on a fluke. I appreciate your time and explaining your methods, it is very interesting. But please, you need to stop being so condescending. Any great coach will readily acknowledge that every person is different and that there is no single way to success.
Excellent season. Just because your timing for your peak may have been "off", doesn't make you a loser. Excellent PR this year.
To be more PC, maybe Antonio should have just told you that re-examining your Olympic results and determining what factors could have led to this result could aid you in your future training endeavors. However, as the professional you are, I am sure this goes w/o being said. Hopefully you gain motivation from his post instead of thinking it to be true.
That is what I gain from this site. It's posts like this that motivate me more than anything. If someone says you "can't do something", or that the training that you believe in is $hit, prove 'em wrong boyo. This site needs more posts like this and less of who is going to be the next what or what damn energy to drink, etc. etc.
I guess Antonio is angry because he knows every world-class runners exact training, except for Marius. He want to know how he did run 13.11-13.09-13.08-13.06, cause he thinks it's impressive. So when he doesn't know he the program he gets frustrated, he doesn't like it and thinks it's bad just because Marius didn't solve the peaking puzzle.
It's always a problem when runners run superb races in the beginning of a long season. The question is to keep the training the same or to improve it even more to run faster in the end. So in the first we will see an athlete doing 13.10 in the beginning and 13.10 in the end keeping training the same, stay safe. And if the athlete decides to improve the training we will see 13.10 in the beginning and 13.00 or 13.30 in the end. So it's a big difference between 13.10 and 13.00 in the end, it could be the difference between a medal or not. So it's up to the athlete to take the chance or not. I believe Marius will get things right in the coming seasons, now that he tried different ways to improve performance.
eurorun, dc449 and nippon marathon
I was waiting for a bunch of Marius fans and supporters to argue against my own opinion. I was right since it don´t take too long to come to my e-mail lots of messages in Marius defence.
First think that I want to say is that i´ve nothing against Marius – but the contrary – I wish him the best in all aspects. I see the talent and the capacity that he may aim to be European champ or at least an european medal in 2 years now. And a good classification in next year World Champs. Why not ? He may assume that.
As far as I understand coaching or training we learn more from the defeats than in the victories. Now, it´s up to the coach (or self coach runner) to analyse what went wrong and why went wrong, and eventually made change our direction in the training, the periodisation, the race schedule and the mental attitude.
In my training philosophy a winner needs to be humble enough to consider realistic the failures and the success. He also need to be a permanent “unsatisfied”. That´s in frustration that we build a winner temperament not in happiness. We need to be ambitious, to have determination. A winner mentality. But we don´t want to let the runner live in the fantasy.
But regarding Marius performance in the last Olympics for me the question is clear and simple what was done was done. Is Marius happy with their performances ? Marius he considers that he did his targets in the Olympics? Is he satisfied ? If so, forget what i said – my opinion that´s just an individual opinion.
For me it would be a great defeat as a coach if a runner of mine went to the Olympics with 13:06 and comes back with a 13:36 a 12th place in the heats, and that would be a great defeat for me also indeed, and I would try to learn the lesson as deeply and quickly as possible.
I remember the example of my runner Alberto Chaiça. When he went to 2003 WChamps he was the 98th in the marathon rankings among all participants – he finish 4th place in the marathon. This Athens olympics he was the 29th PB among all participants. He did the 8th in the final. He did win over Tergat and Gahrib – how many can claim any time to win over Tergat ? But do you think that i´m happy at all ? I don´t!
A coach – as far as I understand – may have “divine madness” and while knowing in the runner talent and potential he may build realistic targets for his runner.
One more example about Alberto Chaiça. This weekend his team, Portuguese Conforlimpa did win European Road Team title. Individually he did second place winning over lots of good runners – that includes the italien Mauricio Leone. But he lose for Spain Ivan Galan by 2 seconds in an half marathon Do you think that i´m happy or head coach are we happy ? Not at all. Alberto Chaiça that´s a guy that have no great talent relate to Marius i guess. But his strenght that´s starts in in critics and ends in self motivation.
So as you see i don´t analyse different those i coach than Marius.
Antonio my friend,
My Olympic results has nothing to do with my AT - or the peaking plan.
You as a top coach would know that sometimes things do not go your way - even if you have peaked at the correct time. Look at my results 10 days before the Olympics, running close to 1500 meter personal best solo. You do not lose shape that quickly just from training/resting that last period if nothing else has happened. But of course you would know this.
I have come a long, long way from running 14.29 (in training) - doing 14 sessions weekly down to 13.06 running just as many sessions. And I will continue to work it down from there, using the training I believe get the most out of my potential.
Good luck with your athletes,
Thanks for you kindness. I would like to be like you, but i´m not so polite as you are.
But I would prefer that you would be offensive to me but that you will tell us the reason you think why you did fail in Athens.
Just to clarify facts and opinions and ideas.
That´s not a my own personal opinion that what you did in Athens a disappoint v result.. That´s you that said that.
As i also didn´t invented that you are a "peak expert" or a "tactic expert". Go on to the arquives and to Marius site posts and comments and i guarantee you that you will read that 2 ideas from Marius himself.
Just a recent example. Go to Marius archives and read that.
But I don´t see no justification for your Athens failure.
But one thing I know – that you are very reluctant to admit the personal reasons why you fail when you fail and that would be a very positive for yourself and will turn you on to be more ambitious in the future.
In that Athens “long way road” - as usual you want to make pass the idea that you didn´t nothing wrong everything went perfect in the planification – and that you get out the possibility that anything went wrong. You are always reluctant that anything went wrong in your plan or in AT or competitive schedule or anything else.
So that´s bad luck what you get in all big games ! I hope that bad luck changes for good luck, but I guess there are inner logic reasons for your failure – that you don´t know or that you don´t want to reveal and that will be absurd to keep on going that all is quite perfect.
Marius, a runner must be humble but at the same time must be ambitious to win and also self critic from their results and if self coached critic from his training. This is the attitude that will made you a true champion, from the 4th class world category that you think you are now (with all respect) to the move up to higher classes that you are able to take that. But you need to win…that magic word for the runners.
My best wishes.
Marius might be a very demanding self-critic, you don't know that. You don't know what he has said to himself about his performances. But one thing I do know is that he does not to have to discuss anything with you. He does not have to justify his training methods to you either. I would expect that he has a small group of individuals who do know his daily training and who have his complete trust. And you're not among them. Bummer, eh?
Live with it.
What is the 600th post. Why do people think that rep work will deter aerobic efficiency after 6 weeks?
Antonio is being quite hard on Marius. I do agree that the board would have a great chance to learn if Marius would openly enter the discussion. From what he lets on about his training (very little) he seems to be a great balance to what Canova and Cabral are saying and has solid PB's to back it up. I don't fully understand why he is covering up his training details. I go to his sight every few days to read all the updates he gives, but I can't put it all together to see the overall picture. Aerobic development and increasing AT to highest possible speed with lower lactate values yes, but the organization of workouts over an entire year I don't see...
Marius thank you for the input you have given,