Public altercation between Tyler Hamilton and Lance Armstrong.

Sorry, but were Eddy Merckx, Jacques Anquetil, Bernard Hinault, Faustio Coppi, Laurent Fignon, Joop Zoetemelk, or any other Tour De France winner who is a confirmed doper every criminally prosecuted? No. In fact, an admitted doping Tour de France winner, Bjarne Riis, has been allowed for several years to Manage teams competing in the Tour De France. And this year he'll Manage Alberto Contador's Saxo Bank team.

Armstrong is not even being targeted for doping, technically, as the possible charge is based on alleged misuse of federal funds during the years U.S. Postal Service was team sponsor. So there won't even be follow-up U.S. criminal investigations of bicycle doping where the sponsor was a private company. So the suggestion that not prosecuting Lance would be like stopping prosecution of fraud is a false comparison.

Again, to stop doping requires much stricter doping controls by a uniform international body. And it needs as much resources as possible, not wasted money on a domestic criminal prosecution of one guy.

Reply to "it's getting interesting": It is, and Lance did himself no favors by speaking to Hamilton. As a lawyer, I'd never have let him do that. I do believe Hamilton has every incentive to take down Armstrong, as he's been given immunity from prosecution dependent on assisting the feds in taking down Armstrong, and the closer he is to the story the more money he can make on a book deal.

Reply to: First, Lance has made a mint proclaiming that "it's about the bike.": The reality is that it was about the bike even w/ doping because Armstrong beat doping competitors every time he won. If it is proven that Armstrong doped, have you thought about who you'd give his Jerseys to? Confirmed doper Jan Ullrich? Confirmed doper Alex Zulle? Confirmed doper Marco Panatani? Confirmed doper Ivan Basso? Each time he won the other contenders on the podium doped.

You have to admit that this is not like baseball, where a guy like Ken Griffey has a legit gripe that a contemporary like Bonds is ahead of him just because of drugs. I'd prefer it if Lance didn't dope, but it's not credible to target him as bicycling's doping problem.

Keep it up SamL, it's just too easy.

Okay....so, the U.S. could invest in systematically trying to reduce, say, insider trading and other crimes in the securities crimes. But, an opportunity comes along to prosecute a high profile fund manager for insider trading. Hmm, according to your reasoning, they should not prosecute the fund manager because those "in the know" are aware that many high profile investors of the past have engaged in insider trading and similar activities, but for one reason or another were not prosecuted. And, it would better to skip this one because, well, tax payer money should only be spent on developing a better system of detecting securities offenses. In your world Sam, those who cleverly slip beyond the bounds of a system of detection are forever free to commit their crimes for special efforts to go after them are just merely wasteful.

Yes.

SamL, great post..now all we want is for Lance to tell us all exactly what you just did. Everyone including LA was a doper. Is that too much to ask?

I think we would all respect him much more, since its a foregone conclusion that hes a doper. Now hes a doper and a liar.

I disagree with you on all levels. Regarding prosecuting the case, Mmmmno said it better than I ever could, so I'll just add that I can't imagine the Feds would have continued with this case (high profile American icon) if they didn't feel there were some serious crimes being committed. I look forward to the outcome.

It is "about the bike" in that he used his "clean" image to make a mint. He and his sponsers threw it in our face. He didn't have to write a book or make those commercials. He could have quietly rode his bike to multi tour wins (while doping) and still made a ton of money, but greed/arrogance got the better of him.

If you want to clean up cycling, what better way than to bust the biggest fraud of all time. If anything, this case might just be the thing to get the IOC and UCI to take a serious stand against doping in cycling. Or I should say, this might force the corrupt IOC to clean up the very corrupt UCI.

I don't care if anyone gets the Yellow jerseys from '99 to '05. Leave it blank as far as I'm concerned, but Lance certainly doesn't deserve to keep his titles. How does that help clean up cycling if he gets away with it?

Furthermore, I hope this investigation leads to a closer look at his foundation. I'm sure Livestrong has done some good, but the primary motivation has been to line his own pockets. Have you seen how much the Livestrong legal expense has gone up in the past year? Should money intended for cancer "awareness" go to his defense team? How many non-profit organizations have a travel budget of 2 million? And don't give me the line that he needs to fly private. Airlines would love to accommodate Armstrong and keep him from the rif-raf in 2nd class. Heck, Bill Gates flies commericial.

The key is to avoid the easy trap of blaming the entire PED problem on the few who are unlucky enough to get caught. This is what cycling went through until too many got caught for this to keep working.

Lance is not THE problem. He's part of the problem. But just saying "drugs are bad, m'kay" and spouting useless guidance counsellor drivel about winners not using drugs is, well, useless.

The doping problem is deep and systematic. Yes, the athletes who chose to use peds are breaking the rules and we're better off if they get caught. Still, we're far beyond the simplistic view that "a few bad apples" are spoiling endurance sports for the honest competitors. The game is broken, and that includes the sponsors, athletes, coaches, doctors, and yes, the fans.

Very good post and points being brought up here. While I in no way defend the actions of these cyclists I want to bring it down to a non professional athletes level. Back in the early 90's my Dad used to mountain bike race Floyd. He said Floyd would show up to the races in sweat pants and a beater bike and literally dominate everyone (only until the results started pouring in did his pastor allow him to go to shorts). My Dad said Floyd would work 12 hr shifts at the local grocery store then bike monster mileage throughout the night. So we know the guy had talent. Then Floyd started to make it big in the mountain bike scene, but just like most he followed the money; road racing. So here we have this small town Mennonite guy introduced into a whole new world, and in this world he finds doping. All the sudden all this attention is given to you from Lance, or your coach, and they are telling you,"Hey take this take that, its no big deal...everyone is doing it". Everyone faces peer pressure in their lives, some on a much bigger scale. Like Tyler said in his 60 minutes interview a similar situation was brought upon him. Now here is how I see Lance got into doping. Lance beats cancer, he is a nobody. Sure he was a GOOD American cyclist but on the world scene he was no one. Lance is looking at his life and says, dope? Why not, if I do it right I can climb out this hole and become a someone. But I think Lance began to surprise himself with how good, and how much support he got. Lance wins a tour, what a surprise! Why stop doping now? And then he goes on to win 7 tours. But I feel like the whole thing was an avalanche, he didn't have the foresight to see how big of a deal he would become. And how big of a deal doping would become. And now everyone around him is being caught, pointing fingers at him. But its not just that Lance has become a sports icon, he became a role model to so many cancer patients throughout the world. No one wants to let so many people down. Deep down inside I think Lance is scared shitless.

Bitch Fight wrote:

Love to see those two queers in a bitch fight, slapping each other, pulling hair, panties, whining and crying.

Wow! your E-badness behind a keyboard is admirable there tough guy! You're pretty ballsy for a 15 year old!

Mmmno: The analogies don't hold up for two big reasons:

1. Unlike insider trading, individual use of EPO is not a federal felony justifying criminal prosecution. So if you'd like your analogy to work, I write your Congressman and get him to change the laws -- then you'd have to deal with constitutional issues of retroactive prosecution and the Commerce Clause.

2. The U.S. Department of Justice is not charged with policing international cycling. It is charged with regulating domestic securities markets. This is why the case vs. LA is based on a bogus allegation of misusing Postal Service funds to invoke federal authority, and could very well the reason the case gets thrown out without a verdict on doper or not. This point is not just about the U.S. legal system, it's about the fact that cycling is an international sport that needs an international solution.

Investing resources into an investigation of past conduct doesn't address the problems of today, which are sorely in need of immediate attention -- as Contador's continued participation in the Tour De France despite a positive doping test shows. That, my friend, seems like a much greater evil than Armstrong joining the pantheon of Merckx, Anquetil, Coppi, Hinault, etc. in avoiding detection.

The case against Lance re: the misuse of federal funds is bogus? Do tell! You should get yourself to Washington forthwith and straighten this situation out, because there has apparently been an egregious misunderstanding!

This is different: Your argument seems to be a lot more focused on going after Lance & Schadenfreude than coming up with a helpful solution for Cycling. I don't think calling for a federal investigation of the Livestrong foundation or faulting LA for writing about coming back from cancer would do anything for the sport of cycling. And calling Lance the "biggest fraud of all time" seems a bit over the top given things like Enron, Worldcom, Madoff, etc.

You make a good point that this case could spur reform by the IOC and UCI. Even more, it could serve as an example for enhancing cooperation between foreign governments in multinational biking investigations.

Maybe so, but I tend to think otherwise, because the show keeps going on as we speak as Alberto Contador -- the next Lance Armstrong -- gets to participate in this year's Tour De France despite a positive drug test last year, and seems on his way to getting off scot free. I think the better way to correct and prevent current abuses of the sport is to focus on the present & recognize that resources desperately need to go there.

It seems to me that we can both expose Lance (a worthy undertaking in itself, even if he's not Bernie Madoff) AND call for a more systematic, international approach to cleaning up cycling. And doing the former seems much more likely to aid than hinder the cause of the latter. In the long run, the truth never hurts.

lance armstrong is a huge scumbag who took cheating to Barry Bonds like proportions in cycling, check that, he did it before Barry and used Livestrong to protect him. Livestrong mainly sells the yellow bands and pays for Lance's lawyers.

Well the FBI is interested in this flare up, if Lance said something stupid he could be charged with witness tampering. The FBI has told the owner of the eatery they want the survillance tape.

"Biggest fraud" was referring to cycling/sports. I thought that was obvious in the context of this discussion. And, yes, I do think Lance's situation could result in him being the biggest sporting fraud of all-time. Maybe it's over the top, but if the allegations are true, it's going to be an ugly descent.

There are different issues here: the Feds are interested in government fraud involving millions, possible RICO violations, drug trafficking, etc. I don't think they are responsible for cleaning up cycling, but enforcing U.S> laws. At the same time, I do think justice in this case can and will help cycling clean up it's act.

BTW, although it's been a number of years since I read his book, it was made very clear that he was PED free. Coming back from cancer is a great story, but leave it at that and don't try attempt to write a bunch of additional BS.

dfssdf wrote:

lance armstrong is a huge scumbag who took cheating to Barry Bonds like proportions in cycling, check that, he did it before Barry and used Livestrong to protect him. Livestrong mainly sells the yellow bands and pays for Lance's lawyers.

^^ this.

Plus Cancer-donation-financed Livestrong pays his private jet.

I want to live in a world where this behaviour gets penalized.

Floyd Landis wrote:

Sure he was a GOOD American cyclist but on the world scene he was no one.

He was the world friggin' champion, dude.

Then there are these:

1993 World Pro Road Race

1 stage, Tour de France

1995 Clasica San Sebastian

1 stage, Tour de France

1996 Flèche Wallone

At least research a bit if you're going to pretend like you know what you're talking about.

nice information given

i like it

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