50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Allen1959, best of luck to you and your son in your upcoming marathon! I'm looking forward to the race report.

As for me--I've spent the past two months gradually ramping up my walking (both distance and speed) while gradually reducing the amount of cycling. I'm now walking 6-7 miles most mornings and my stride feels, while not quite right, pretty good. I can get under 15 min/mile walking most days. Several times per week I throw in some short jogging sections, but the jogging still isn't working. I can only get 50-100 meters before my left foot starts scuffing the ground and I have to start working really hard to lift my left leg up very high on each stride, which tires my leg and makes it scuff even worse, and I have to shut down for fear of tripping and falling. (I've crashed twice this month, once while walking and once while jogging, mostly because of getting overconfident and not paying enough attention to what my left leg is doing. Just superficial scrapes and bruises, but it reminds me to be careful.) I did go on a 7-mile day hike and a very short overnight backpack trip (4 miles in and out) in the Sierras, and I found that stomping up and down rugged trails works much better than ambulating on a smooth road. This is pretty common for people with dystonia.

I don't know whether I'll ever recover the ability to run. For now, I'm just trying to improve my walking to the point where I can do some more ambitious backpack trips later this summer.

I seemed to have the opposite experience last summer. I fell a couple of times, once hitting my head on a boulder. Other times slipping on some loose soil, and stumbling while crossing over fallen timber. Most likely I was just tired and not backpacking fit. I did tell my son that this coming summer we need to find a trail that is less primitive.

For me, it may be largely a matter of paying attention. I've been clumsy all my life, and even before this dystonia started I had to pay very close attention to where I was putting my feet in order to hike on rugged trails without tripping. I never used to have to pay any attention on a smooth road. Now I have to be careful even on smooth roads, but it's hard to lose habits of a lifetime.

Thanks. That's encouraging.

I don't know how accurate (or not) Garmin is, but it had me at 3.14 miles. The course is accurately measured, but quite a few turns and roads with vehicles present, so not necessarily optimal for running tangents.

I have raced multiple certified courses in national events and found my Garmin very accurate. I pride myself on tangent racing ability.

So, for this week-

Sat - 5k race - 20:08.

Sun - 6 miles steady in 45:27 (7:33 per mile)

Mon - 4 mile recovery run - 31:51 (7:58 per mile)

Tue - 7.68 miles in 56:01 (7:18 per mile) including 6x4 min around 10 mile pace/4 min steady recovery

Wed - 3.1 mile recovery in 25:11 (8:08 per mile)

Thur - 5 miles in 35:38 (7:07 per mile) including 8x30 second strides. This one got away from me a bit. Intended to do a steady 5 with strides, but ended up being quite a bit quicker.

Fri - 3 mile recovery - 24:42 (8:14 per mile)

Sat - 7.54 miles in 54:33 (7:17 per mile), including 12x400 with 400m steady recovery (7:50 to 8:00 pace). Not a great day - raining and 16mph wind blowing right down one straight (fortunately does have some trees at the end for wind-break). This is an Easy Interval Method Session with goal of about 10k pace. Felt tired going in, but figured I could at least run 6:40 pace. I don't time these individual, just wear a separate watch to the Garmin on the other wrist, and get the total time for the reps. Started out around 98/99 for the first two, and 6:35 for four. Noticed I was gradually getting further inside 6:40 pace without increasing effort (13:00 for 8, when 6:40 pace would be 13:20) and ended up with 19:19 for the 12, averaging 96.5 which is closer to 5k pace (20:06 roughly) and last four averaged 94.75.

That's quite a strong week for me at this age. Hardest thing is recovery for legs - what is a very easy HR pace doesn't always translate to legs these days. Not sure if it's going to be sustainable - I'll have some idea tomorrow!

I'd like to try and get organized to swap out one recovery day for weights and stationary bike.

I'm also wondering if, after 50 years of running and doing a couple of sessions a week of around 8 miles at a high aerobic effort, should be putting a long run in? I'm hesitant, partly because I really don't enjoy them, especially if I do them at an easy pace (which I find very hard). If I run them at what feels a natural pace it takes too long to recovery (I recover less well from long runs than speedwork - I think I'm a slow sprinter with a big V02). I don't think a steady 8 is going to advance me much over the current runs. Then it's a question of will the time taken to recover from an 1 hour 40 min - the point at which their are really significant benefits from the long run - offset the benefits?

Cavorty,

As I wrote to you some time ago, I have very similar feelings about training, and also my body reacts quite the same as yours. In particular, long run is something that I do not like (mentally) and my legs do not appreciate it either. Instead, I’d rather do one more (less intensive) tempo or a hilly fartlek. Do not run longer than 1 hour on a regular basis. Staying in the range of 35-40 mpw and 20-25% fast miles of the total, it seems to work, at least for me on 5-10K. Some indirect indicator is that an age-graded calculator returns 87+% for my 5K season ’21 best and 86+ for 10K, quite close. Of course it will be a dramatic decrease for HM, but I do not target it.
With regard to the issue of strong cardiovascular vs. weak (or injured) legs, I use elliptical. Not sacrificing 2 main workouts per week (interchange of interval, flat tempo and hills), 2-3 times on elliptical (45-50 min each) seem OK.
Perhaps my winter skiing helps (when typical training time is 65-75 min), but I do not think that this basis lasts for more than 2 months.

Best of luck to you!

Instead of shorten the "easy" distance runs and keep the pace between 7 and 9 min per miles, I decided a long time ago to keep my distance and run it as slow as needed for recovery. Currently, I ran most of my recovery runs very slow. I do not take the time. Not necessary because purpose is to recover and get the mileage in no matter how slow. For sure most time slower than 9:00 min per mile. Sometimes it is a very slow jog as would others do for recovery intervals on the track. Even with very slow recovery runs, I redlined last week into overtraining due to 3 workouts per week - despite I am keeping the volume of my workouts "small". Thus, this week was a recovery week. Felt my sympathetic nervous system toning up from Tuesday to Wednesday. This is the red flash light of overtraining and I switched immediately into recovery mode.

Mo 7 miles easy with last 2 miles progressive

Tu 30 min jumps and drills uphill, 6x60m uphill

We off

Th 8 miles recovery, 5x100m with jog back

Fr off

Sa 4 miles recovery with some walking between

Su 6x100m slightly uphill with walk back, 7 miles recovery

Rojo, I liked the talk with Jakob about "back to back to back".

Take care, have fun, good success to the racer here.

Another week in paradise:

M: 6M track - 3(2x300/100jog; 3x200/100) full lap between segments. The 3(200/100) are “sneaky” 800’s. Shared the track with four high school seniors playing soccer on the football field. I tossed back a lot of soccer balls

T: 44:00 treadmill @ 12:30 pace

W: 6M with a 1.5M fast finish @ 9:00 pace plus four strides. Getting warmer

Th: moved remainder of wife’s office crap

F: 6M with 24(:30/:40) on path between dog runs at the park. Perfect for turnover running less than .1 of a mile

Sat: 10M progression run with the running kids - 10:00 pace down to 8:55 pace. That felt good. And so was breakfast. Never pass up a Havana latte and an egg, cheddar, bacon everything bagel.
Racing my first 5km since Covid Era on Memorial Day.
enjoy the week.

Good luck racing Allen, MagicShoes#16, and Dave!
Amkelley: I would not bet against you returning to running
Prefontaine Classic: BOO on paywalls. Perhaps making track more obscure than gerbil racing is not the smartest marketing plan…

Mon = 62 min easy, flat, paved greenway
Tue = 20 min easy then 41 min easy on flat, gravel trail with group
Wed = 62 min easy, flat, paved greenway
Thr = 40 min easy, flat, paved greenway, cut short for race Sat
Fri = Every Fri off.
Sat = 20 min warmup, then 5K Race @ 7:50 pace (7:45, 7:56, 7:56, 6:51)
Sun = 63 min easy, flat, paved greenway

Pleasantly surprised to go 7:50 pace considering my average training pace the last 6 months has been 11:31. This was a rust-buster as my last race was October of ‘21. I should not be surprised but it still seems impossible to go 7:50 pace with all the pedantic plodding I’ve been doing.

I’m aware this is not a stellar time but I do see it as a good starting point. I’m just going to keep adding minutes and hope to make 90 as my next goal. I don’t plan on plodding along at 11:30 pace forever, as to improve significantly I’ll need both more miles and a faster average training rate.

I’m sure folks have seen this particular tool and it is fun to play around with differing paces and distances to get an estimate of what to expect when racing. I’m curious if folks have used it and if it is accurate?

Have a good one!

Just a quick post from Northern MI before we start our vacay day.

Another miracle happened yesterday with my Half Marathon. I've had a lot of doubt the past few weeks dealing with my shin issue. Even noting in my log two weeks ago 'there is no way I can run 13 miles in 2 weeks!' I haven't run one single mile under under 7:00 over the past 7 weeks. After a short easy mile warm-up, everything somehow came together when the gun went off. After a 7:06 uphill first mile, I strung together 12 sub 7:00 miles. Achilles and shin were 100% pain free. Ended up hitting my goal of 1:29:55 and won the 60-64 by seven minutes! Except for one little bad patch around 8.5, the run went perfectly! Anyhow, here's a note from my log and splits.

"Really happy with race. First uphill mile was the only mile over 7:00. Walked thru the water stop at 8.5 when I started feeling bad quick. Recovered well and maintained pace all the way in. Perfect sunny 45 deg at the start. Physically felt 100% which was a miracle in itself. Since I considered pulling out two weeks ago! Age grades 80.87%"

706,653,653,653,649,651,646,644,659,652,651,657,656,:25

Time for a day off running and visiting some beaches!

Have a good run,

Dave

Mon 7 miles

Tue: 5 miles ( 1minute pickups)

Wed: 3 miles

Thur: 10 miles

Fri: 5 miles

Sat: 7 miles

Sun: 5 miles ( 7-1 minute pickups)

strides, weight lifting. I’m in my race phase so training won’t look to great. I have 3 races in the next two weeks and I’m taking it easy on my knees ( last surgery was February 23rd)…

Not much else going on .. I love retirement.. well, I re-ordered some books I had previously had in another life

improve your running- Bill Squires

varsity 7-about runners that came out of Seattle area.

Ron Clarke Talks Track and watching NHL playoffs and lots of Perry Mason re-runs.

Congratulations, Dave! Glad you're back racing and posting. We were in Traverse City on Friday on our way upNorth and saw lots of runners on the trail. Enjoy your vacation and keep us up to date. Hope to see you at a race soon. My husband and I will be running at Outdoor Nationals in Lexington.

Nice racing RType,RDB

Run the pace that feels good. Dose makes the medicine. More is not always better. ect.

Recovery Base Speed Race

Got a quality massage table man I could sleep on this great platform for doing all the old man strength flex stuff

A few sand runs rocking the bike walking as usual calf muscles/lower legs doing well

Onward!

AMK, great to read that you are making progress. Nice race results Rtype, Racerdb, Cavorty and anybody else I missed. I got in my full training plan mileage this week, but slowly with my legs still pretty dead from last week's 5k. 50 miles for the week -

M- 6mi of walk 400/ run 400

T- 6mi of walk 400/ run 400

W- 8mi of walk 400/ run 400

Th- 6mi of walk 400/ run 400

F- 6mi of walk 400/ run 400

S- 8mi trails with my son 9:16/mi

Su- 10 mi trails 9:56/mi

Good running to all!

Orient: Thanks, those are great age graded times – I would
be thrilled to hit them. I tend to think the same way as you. I’m probably best
at 1500/3000m if there was more opportunity to race enough of them. I ran close
to 85% (on the latest updated gradings) for 1500m about 12 years ago at the
Nationals in Sacremento, where I had trained for the 5000m. I did the 5000m two
days earlier, and despite being somewhat stiff and sore from that did the
1500m, which is now my best age graded run.
I think if you are more a speed type runner, you don’t
benefit a lot from a very slow distance run, particularly in racing season. I
think the 8 mile aerobic reps, will retain aerobic capacity.
Like your x-country skiing this winter I trained for some
25k trail races and did do 80 min runs on the trails. I think too, with 50
years of training we have a big long term aerobic background, especially if we
are only racing up to 10k, and our bigger problems are speed/power and speed
endurance.

Newbi: I’ve also noticed the sympathetic nervous system ramp
when I get a little too much intensity. I have to be very careful with that
going to the last four or five weeks before a race, with more anaerobic work.
Too many times, I’ve run a great session or time trial two or three weeks out
from a race, and then been totally ‘flat’ because the endocrinal system got
overworked.

I don’t think I could happily jog for an hour, unless I was
doing hill trails. My natural rhythm for a steady run seems to be 7:40is +/-
depending how I feel. Turnover is
normally 190+ and so if I run, say 8:30 pace when I’m not really tired, I feel like
I’m taking six inch strides.

Racerdb: Great half-marathon. Never was able to run a good,
or even respectable one of those.

NICE postings this week...RacerDB, what a stud half...OMG!

AMkelley, so good to hear from you...may I suggest adding 10-15 minutes per day of walking barefoot on grass...it has been my savior.

Speaking of which, I was able to incorporate more than an hours worth of such barefooted antics this week, which I am convinced is what has enabled me to run a half decent track mile this past Thursday.

I had not stepped on an oval since March, however, I tested the waters just to get a sense of where I'm at, as I am HOPEfully emerging from two injury riddled months. Did an uptempo 2 mile run as a warmup, and then ran one mile of 'sprint' straight / run (not jog) turn...was 7:32...and you know what? I'll smile and take that benchmark all the way to the geriatric bank.

This morning I managed my fourth consecutive weekend 8 miler...started with a 1:27 four weeks ago (not a typo) then 1:15, 1:13 and today, 1:11. The trend appears positive...though we'll have to wait and see if I can still walk tomorrow.

Am off to the remote NorCal Coast this week where there'll be no real training...just some easy jogs with my bride and pup...along with more barefoot walking...on the beach instead of the grass.

Wishing one and all a stellar week of traing/racing/re-hab.

Warmest regards,

MF

3:44:06. M60-64 fifth place. 32 seconds behind 3rd. I ran well through 23 miles, then faded.

I saw 3rd and 4th pass me together near end. Couldn't muster strength to stay with them.

I had hit my foot on a pylon and fell hard at about 9.5. Left me very sore for a couple miles. Then fell again at end. Left me unconscious. No memory of that fall. Woke up briefly in hospital, then back to la la land. Black eye, stiches, various contusions. Fractured facial bones? Hope to go home tomorrow afternoon. Bummer!

More details on Monday. Maybe biking only for a while.

My son ran very conservatively, then slowed some for final miles. A bit over 4 hours.

Run well.

Cavorty , easy pace article. Gist is easy pace depends on your economy.

outsideonline.com

The Hidden Factor That Explains Easy Run Pace

mmirhashem

Most people run the same pace regardless of how far they’re running, according to new research

Link:www.outsideonline.com/health/training-...

Why is is that easy pace is a poor predictor of race pace?

Lots of questions yet to be answered. I have some WAGs but WAGs on this thread of not allowed.