50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

MONDAY, August 10, 2020:

- Regular stretches (11 stretches)

- Upper Body strength (6 exercises, 1 set each)

- Back stretches (9 stretches)

- Lower Body strength (5 exercises, 1 set each)

- Knee strength (2 exercises)

I'm getting closer to my home

I'm getting closer to my home

I'm getting closer to my home

I'm getting closer to my home

Good tunes make the drudgery easier to bear.

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

You can improve your engine by hard work, but here's the Catch-22--the amount of work you can perform is constrained by other inborn limits. You rarely hear that, in the running books and articles. The authors are usually top runners themselves, so they have little personal experience of these limits. The common theme I've seen is something like, "Running is one sport where you can get back whatever you put in." Most authors do caution beginning runners to increase mileage slowly, but no one seems to have any doubt that the mileage can eventually be increased.

This is one reason I think Running Formula is the best book on running (and hence my HN). Jack Daniels started studying running physiology because running was his worst event as a modern pentathlete. He also coached at a D III school for many years. So he has plenty of experience with coaching regular people. (Along with some Olympians like Lisa Martin Ondieki.)

My week:

M: off.

T: 6km.

W: 6km.

R: 7.1km.

F: 5km.

SA: 6km.

SU: 8.9km.

On Friday, I found the part was booked for another superspreader event (aka BBQ) so I decided to go to another park and run a hilly loop. It's good that I had run a bit extra on Thursday. I checked the calendar, and found that there will be another superspreader event in two weeks, so I should plan in advance.

As for my weight, it's about 5 lbs heavier than pre-lockdown. But I think it's okay. There will be no race for a foreseeable future and I think I am actually healthier at 135. It will come down once I increase my mileage, even though I will be eating more. This guy has about the same height as me, but weights 117. He has also run 2:05 twice. He was born to run, I wasn't.

Hi Saskoldguy SOG,

5:28 not too shabby.

Interesting training with daily cycling.

The 2x8x100m with short rest, e.g. start all 45 sec, was a stable workout for 800m (kids). Will pickup this kind of sessions in October (hope so).

Additional information on Jack Daniels, involved in preparing endurance athletes for the 1968 Olympic Games. He was cross country coach at University of Texas in 1970. My college coach Tom Von Ruden (1968 Olympian 1500 meters) consulted with him throughout his running career. I had a question for Daniels a decade ago and he wrote me right back. Daniels still involved in the sport as far as I know.

On body weight, training, and health we have tossed the topic around in the past. I have noticed more of my running contemporaries out or slowed by A-Fib. I have no proof, but tend to believe my younger years mileage (110 mile average week 1970-1976) contributed to my lymphoma diagnosis. Not that I would change a thing—in fact I would not. Still, there are limits to most things. As you stated, with no races in the near future, who cares about a few pounds.

My BMI is about 22, as I am a hair over 5'9" and 150. But I agree that BMI is a very crude tool to measure one aspect of health.

Back in the 80s I had a body fat measurement that said I had 8% body fat, at about the same height and weight that I am at today. I also have a picture of me standing next to Frank Shorter as he was awarding me an age group medal for some 10K in the Chicago area. Despite our same height (I hadn't started to shrink then) and my low body fat, I look line a linebacker standing next to Frank. My genes give me big shoulders and chest, and those bones have weight.

Seattle Grey Hair wrote:

I agree that BMI is a very crude tool to measure one aspect of health.

I am glad that you agree. It seems that everyone here agrees. I am not aware of anyone who disagrees. We are one big happy family with regard to our universal agreement on this point.

I bet if I agree, there will be disagreement. I agree. Let the Games begin.

KC -- Thanks for sharing your success story. Sask -- At just barely 50, and with your historical PRs, I'd say sub-5:20 is almost a given. Certainly your progression so far agrees with that. It'll be interesting to follow along.

I usually include "telephone pole accelerations" in my final half-mile ... a gentle way of getting at least a little speedwork (relatively speaking). I'm hoping to add upper-body work and cycling on my off days ... struggling to make time. And, like you, my dietary components aren't too bad, but I tend to binge. Like just now ... home briefly between jobs, hungry, ate an entire box of granola cereal -- 1,980 calories!

I can relate to both situations. At age 57, I decided to start running again after a seven-year break. After three months of 2- or 3-day-a-week training, I ran 3:25 for the marathon (7:52-pace). Then I got more serious, and within months I improved to sub-19 for 5K, sub-60 for 15K, and a 3:07 marathon after 12 months. Not especially impressive compared to many here, but it put me in the top tier of local geezers.

Writing up my training plans and executing the workouts and long runs was fun, especially as it was paying off so well. Winning AG competitions (and even posting over-all wins) was even more fun. A rewarding positive-feedback loop, as you say. But the writing was on the wall: even that first year I lost weeks to injuries.

As the "regulars" may recall, at 59 I targeted a sub-3 marathon at age 60. All I needed, I figured, was to maintain 60 miles per week. I'd never consistently trained at that volume, even when setting my youthful PRs, so I was excited to see what would happen. But what happened was my body broke down. There's a reason only a handful of 60+ Americans break 3:00 each year. It's not so much about talent or potential. It's about resiliency. The ability to actually train.

My best BMI was likely when I was "college-poor". 17-20 yrs old, 5-11, 142lbs. Plenty of mileage, too many races, a few school records, but ALWAYS too poor to stuff my gut with all the food I needed or wanted.

My worst BMI is now. Beer-Mass-Intake. 60 yrs old, 5-11, 159lbs, and a junk food addict. My best Masters BMI was M43-47, 5-11, 147-151lbs. Proven by lots of fun running as fast as I believed I could with lots of AGs between 90-94%. 1:58-2:00 800s and 4:04-4:10 1500s. I definitely backed way off from the salt, cheese, ice-cream, and alcohol.

I reckon since I'm now retired I should try and act like I'm poor again.

Hi Y'all,

Lots to read this week:

KC: Congrats on the great HM!

NJDY: Fiona is the real deal!

Saskoldguy: Welcome! You've got a lot of years to go on this thread before you can say you're aged. Looking forward to hearing about your 5:20 run!

What does an earthquake, a walk with a friend, and a flat tire all have to do with each other? If you answered a triathlon, you're correct! Here's my race report for my first real live race in 10 months. Masks were required except for during the actual race and everyone was compliant because this race determined if future races would occur.

My swim could have been faster but I feel like I pushed it to a reasonable pace given I've only trained for three weeks. My split was 8:30 for 400m. Then I got on the bike and was about 3 miles out when I heard a large pop! My rear tire was totally flat ;-( Since I hadn't gone very far, I started to walk back to the start. I knew doing that was probably faster than my trying to change a tube. Many of my competitors asked if I was OK which was really nice. That's when the earth started to move; an earthquake! After I'd walked about a mile, a man on a bike mountain bike who wasn't racing but was pacing a friend, asked if I'd like to ride his bike to finish the race. I was shocked but my reaction was "Yes!". He lowered the seat as far as it would go and I took off. I didn't know how to shift the gears but I thought I could figure it out along the way.

I only had 7 usable gears, no bike computer, and flat pedals with cages but I enjoyed the ride and tried to pass as many people as I could. I really liked the challenge of the hilly course. It would have been lots easier with my own bike but this was an unexpected thrill (?). My split was terrible but I'm happy with how I handled the setback.

I felt great on the run. My legs weren't really tired from the bike leg and I got going pretty much from the start. I felt like I was pushing a good pace (7:50) but I knew my overall race time was going to be terrible so when I saw my injured teammate walking with about 1/4 mile to go, I decided to walk in with her. We walked until we got to the chute and I let her run in ahead of me. I would have had a good run split but I don't regret walking in with her one bit. It was nice to be able to support her instead of having to focus on achieving some time goal. Anyway, this wasn't my finest race time-wise (27:16) but it will stand out to me for being one where I supported a friend and dealt well with adversity.

Although we've got some real races coming up I'm stepping back for a while. My FIL has just been diagnosed with CV and since he cares for my MIL, my husband and I are on call in case we're needed. In addition, my youngest is leaving for his first real job in CT and will have to quarantine there for 14 days if he arrives from SC. So we'll be heading out-of-state to our cabin to spend the 14 days together. That way, he won't have to quarantine once he arrives at work. My plan is to run 35-40 mpw for a while and enjoy spending time with my family instead of feeling pressured to get ready to race.

Long May You Run!

Allen1959 wrote:

As the "regulars" may recall, at 59 I targeted a sub-3 marathon at age 60. All I needed, I figured, was to maintain 60 miles per week. I'd never consistently trained at that volume, even when setting my youthful PRs, so I was excited to see what would happen. But what happened was my body broke down. There's a reason only a handful of 60+ Americans break 3:00 each year. It's not so much about talent or potential. It's about resiliency. The ability to actually train.

+1

Let me just offer an idea. There was a masters runner here in western Mass., and he is probably still around tearing up local road races but I forget his name and haven't kept up, who used to have bad injury problems. He was a talented college runner who never accomplished much in college because he kept getting injured.

At some point in his post-college running career, and I forget all the details of his story, he finally figured out a training routine that worked for him. He found that he could consistently run 100+ mpw by doing ALL of his training runs at 9:00-10:00 mile pace. I mean ALL of his training runs. He only ran fast in races, which was fine, because he raced a lot and had natural speed.

During his masters career, this guy's awesomeness has only been exceeded by his awesomeness. If I did a little research I am sure I could find his name. Probably the studs like socalcush and Coyote Montane and Coureur des bois have his name on the tips of their tongues. They have probably raced against him.

Anyway, this is just a thought for you to ponder. His run-slow, run-long method might work for you. Maybe you already know about this guy.

Well I'm not a masters stud like so many here. Just and old jogger. So by all means carry on, you have floor.

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

... He found that he could consistently run 100+ mpw by doing ALL of his training runs at 9:00-10:00 mile pace. I mean ALL of his training runs. He only ran fast in races, which was fine, because he raced a lot and had natural speed. ...

Anyway, this is just a thought for you to ponder. His run-slow, run-long method might work for you.

Thanks. Ed Whitlock had a similar strategy, as I recall.

Although I have never run ALL my mileage at 9:00-10:00 miles, I've always included a lot at that pace. As a 22-year-old, when I hooked up with others for a post-race recovery run, they couldn't believe how slow I wanted to go.

Twenty years later, one of these fellows was at an event I attended, and he introduced me as "the guy who taught me to slow down."

What I've NEVER had the patience or discipline for are ancillary exercises, stretching, etc.

In any case, my patellar bone spurs, tendinitis and tendon calcification limit my running these days, hence the short runs only three days a week. Speed (well, I mean sub-9 pace), doesn't seem to irritate things particularly, so might as well go for it for those few miles.

As it is, I crawl up our stairs on all fours, walk down them backwards. Can't stand from a seated position without assisting with my arms. Etc. Etc.

Allen1959 wrote:

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

I'm perfectly serious. You could do this. Lose your old-man dead weight and make it happen. You won't be as fast as when you were 17, but you will be faster than you are now.

Um, yeah, 133. Sure! I was thin at 17, and weighed 155 (4:45 mile). I was skinny at 23, but lifting some, and weighed 160 (2:40 marathon). I was deathly thin at 58, and weighed 157 (3:07 marathon). At 59, I was 160ish, admittedly with a bit of a belly, but still gaunt otherwise. In case you doubt, I'll post a couple photos when I get home from work tonight.

KC -- Spectacular half marathon and a great write-up. Since you started posting here, it seems you've seen tremendous gains. If you get a chance, could you share a synopsis of your progression -- would love to see that.

I'm similar - I've competed ever since I was in school - and I'm 63 now. I was 5' 9" and around 150 lbs when I ran my best times at 800m, 1500m, mile, 3000m and 3000m s/c. I'm about the same weight now, although allowing for loss of muscle, I'd like to get down to about 146 lb.

I was probably about 148 lb when I placed in the Masters Nationals at 5000m and 3000m indoor in my mid 50s and at that 30 in jeans were falling off.

So for me 133 at 5' 9" let alone 5' 11'' would be a total impossibility - the last time I was that weight would have been when I was 15/16 years old...

Gotta ask the question. If you think this is a good idea for Allen59 with his chronic injuries then perhaps a good method for you too?

Craig Mottram raced at around 72 to 74 kgs at 188 cm tall. 3.48 mile, 12.55 5000, 27.34 10000. Bronze at Worlds. He went alright.

His brother Neil wisely stuck with basketball. Neil played pro basketball at 105 kg and 205 cm tall,

Ron Clarke ran more than 20 WRs in his career.

Ron was 183 cm and raced at 72 kgs.

Ron's brother Jack could run pretty well too. Fortunately for Aussie football fans Jack stuck with that sport as he was a champion at it. Jack was 175cm an 70 kgs.

John Walker was the first man under 3.50 for the mile and won OG gold, ran well over 100 sub 4s.

182 cm 76 kgs.

Peter Snell, just the 3 Olympic golds, WR at 800/880 and the mile. 179 cm 77kgs

Vladimir Kuts, OG 5000/10000 double WR holder. 172 cm. 72 kgs.

Emil Zatopek, 4 OG golds and a silver. A few WRs, 174 cm 70 kgs.

Derek Clayton. He was the first man under 2.12 when he clocked a 2.09 at Fukuoka in 1967, also first sub 2.09 Antwerp 1969. The Beast was 188 cm and 72 kg in his racing days.

South Australian star Kerry O'Brien managed WRs at 2 miles indoors and in the 3000 m SC, 4th in the 68 OG steeple. 180 cm and 74 kgs.

Rob De Castella was the first World Marathon Champion. The first man to break 2.08 at Boston, 180 cm and raced at 68 to 70 kgs.

Interview with Ernst Van Aaken.

(Would you have advised a big boned heavily muscled runner like Prefontaine to lose weight?)

"He probably couldn't havr brought his weight down further, any more than Norpoth could bring his weight down further. Every person has his own weight where he has gotten rid of practically all the fat. He can't get down lower than that."

Brittle Master 1958 wrote:

During his masters career, this guy's awesomeness has only been exceeded by his awesomeness.

Well said.

Reminds me of trekking to Everest Base Camp. Every time we would catch up with the porters we would let out a cry of AWESOME!! They would soon pass us again and give us a booming AWESOME!!

you might be thinking of Francis Burdett? Similar story anyway, lots of very slow training runs and high mileage, outstanding racing as a master.

Among many other accomplishments, he's legendary at my house for breaking my short-lived Potomac Valley Games M45-49 5000 meter event record with a 16:27 at age 49 in 2014.

--Dave