50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Very nice run (on both days) - Pretty deep field in the 60+ Congrats and you certainly earned a Sunday recovery day!

Dardee wrote:

Beautiful weather in Flint MI for usatf masters 1 mile & crim 10 miler. Good to see some friendly and familiar faces. 1mile race went about expected especially with no 1 mile preparation, finishing in 524 good for 2nd in the 60+ AG. Then after about 3 hours sleep did tempo of crim 10 miler in 635 pace with slowest 711 & fastest 607. Felt tired and niggle in left calf at the end. Still in Flint staying at my wife aunt. Weather 55 and clear today but no running must recover. Have a Blessed Sunday.

BLtheKid wrote:

Let's take the following alternatives:

Run 3 days (1 being a hard workout), then 1 day off. Keep repeating.

Or run 4 days (1 being a hard workout), then 1 day off. Keep repeating.

Or run 5 days (1 being a hard workout), then 1 day off. Keep repeating.

Etc.

Without getting too precise here, obviously the more spaced the actual workouts are, the less fitness one will have (but be less likely to get injured).

What's the lowest frequency of actual workouts one can do and still have it be worthwhile?

For a while in my early 50s, I would just do a track session (say 6x1000m at 5k pace), a 4 mile session at bit under LT, and about 7 miles quite hard, and just jog 2 miles the other 4 days. Probably not an ideal program, but I did run a 17:30 road 5k at 53 on it, so not horrible.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Google: FIRST, “Run Less, Run Faster”

Got the book way back when it came out around 08 or so. I was in my early 50s at the time and started the unpleasant decline in my running performance due to acute & chronic injuries developing like crazy (imagine that: a 50 yr old competitive runner developing age-related running injuries. ?).

I particularly like the stationary bike workouts under the cross-training section, which I've utilized 2-3 times per week for almost 10 yrs now. If you find spinning boring and unmotivating, these bike workouts really do the trick.

It is pretty clear for me that 3-4 days a week of running is the limit. Anything more than that becomes counterproductive. I think the concept behind the FIRST program (“Run Less, Run Faster”) is solid for those struggling to find a balance as they age.

lucKY2b wrote:

Greetings, 50+ers! Going to start with a somber note and a brief moment of silence to remember a good friend, avid runner, and stellar coach, Jim McCoy, who died of a massive heart attack yesterday.

Oh man... Thats always sad to hear. Sorry for your loss.

Coyote Montane wrote:

Dave you had the most depth in your age group! My clubmate may have set an American record for age, but if they go by gun I'm not sure about that. Either way he was right in there!

Thats the truth! Last year my time would have been 2nd! Who's your clubmate?

Just a quick report on my mile in Flint... Always fun seeing everyone at these events. Made a point to to say 'Hey' to FB friends I've never met. The weather was great. There was a little breeze. And that course is not flat!

From my log...

"Mostly happy with the race. 3-4 seconds faster would have made it a great run! Didn't feel very good. Legs still heavy. Felt like I was red lining way too soon! A 76 first quarter shouldn't have felt that hard. Hung on and finished ok. Age grading at 88.99% moves me up to 10th place and a 4:11."

I ended up 34th Overall and 8th in the 55-59 with a 5:11. Splits went 76,77,80,78.

A few interesting tidbits... At 59.26 years old, no one older than me finished ahead of me and... If I were 9 months older I would have broke CM's 60-64 American Record for the road mile.

So I've got that to look forward to next year and maybe set my sights on. Just going to take it easy for a while and get a lot of easy miles in. No real race plans. There's talk about Club XC though I'm really not too excited about it.

Have a good run,

Dave

Cavorty wrote:

BLtheKid wrote:

Let's take the following alternatives:

Run 3 days (1 being a hard workout), then 1 day off. Keep repeating.

Or run 4 days (1 being a hard workout), then 1 day off. Keep repeating.

Or run 5 days (1 being a hard workout), then 1 day off. Keep repeating.

Etc.

Without getting too precise here, obviously the more spaced the actual workouts are, the less fitness one will have (but be less likely to get injured).

What's the lowest frequency of actual workouts one can do and still have it be worthwhile?

For a while in my early 50s, I would just do a track session (say 6x1000m at 5k pace), a 4 mile session at bit under LT, and about 7 miles quite hard, and just jog 2 miles the other 4 days. Probably not an ideal program, but I did run a 17:30 road 5k at 53 on it, so not horrible.

In my fall 2016 - spring 2017 season, I was doing a hard workout every third day. The next year, it was more like every fourth day. Last year, maybe a mix of every fourth or fifth day. And even then, I ended up having problems with my hip/glutes and have taken the last three months off. Going to start again on September 1.

I don't run on your level but was able to meet my goals early in 2019 (70% age-graded versus the world record at my exact age) for the 5K, 10K and Half before my problems got more acute.

I'm thinking of running five days out of six - will work up to that, will just be every other day to start with - and only doing a workout every sixth day.

A few have mentioned the run less, run faster plan but I don't really like to cross-train and I'd rather be running more than three days a week.

That was news to me! A bit of a glitch in the rankings. Tom McCormack ran 5:03 in 2014, but that result is Still pending. So they had 5:19 as the record, for some reason ignoring my time from last year. I did send in an inquiry, but it's all moot now. Kudos to David Westenburg!

So maybe I'm a former (pending) AR holder for the road mile, depending on what they ever decide with McCormack's time, but didn't even know it.

And rdb, hey you're ready to roll next year. 9 mo seems like a long time, I was in the same place 2 years ago but used Tulsa and club xc as spring boards to the new age group. So keep healthy and keep it rolling! And yes, that course is not flat, it kicked my butt.

BLtheKid wrote:

AK-67 wrote:

Define “worthwhile”.

To be able to still run close to your maximum potential. Factoring in age (I'll be 57 in October) and realizing the workouts have to be spaced out more than at a younger age. Maybe this isn't an answerable question because everyone is different?

If you want to run close to your maximum potential, then the ideal frequency is as often as possible without getting injured. (Frequency is only one of the factors that determine the injury risk. ) If the question is the lowest frequency that is not meaningless, then even running once a week is better than running every other week.

Currently, I run six days a week all in singles. I used to do doubles once or twice a week, and I plan to do that again in future. (Or maybe I will replace the shorter run with cross training.) There is no reason that I should take every seventh day off, as opposed to every sixth day or every eighth day. But the rest of my life revolves around a seven-day cycle. So it's just more convenient to have the same cycle for running.

So here was my week.

M: off.

T-SA: 7 miles.

SU: 14 miles.

14 miles was the longest since April, and I felt like I could have gone a little longer if I had to. Only three weeks to go before my next race (half). So I will probably not try 15 mile next week.

Thanks for the words of support! But I need to figure out how not to feel like an old, hobbled, crippled guy 5 out of 7 days each week. They mentioned your name at the awards so they knew your 5:15 was the record. The USATF must not have updated the website yet. Westenburg ran tough. I saw the '60' on his back and went after him. I didn't pass him until the last 100 or so.

Dave

Pete's injured a lot, so I would take the 85 miles a week with a huge boulder of salt. Also YMMV, what is sustainable for you may not work for others.

I always was a pretty high mileage runner, but approaching 60, I've decided the most beneficial thing I can do for my cross country season is to AVOID FALLING AND BREAKING ANYTHING. That's 15 more weeks of trying *not* to get injured from a fall -- that's my goal (and if I achieve it, I'm certain to have a much more successful xc season than the last 4 years!)

I'm sorry about your friend, Lucky. It is shocking and very hard -- and a reminder that we are not promised any amount of time. My parents died at 57 and 58, so every year to me is a gift.

Racerdb wrote:

If I were 9 months older I would have broke CM's 60-64 American Record for the road mile.

Dave, congrats on the fine racing in Flint. Also, kudos to Dardee and NDJY, and to our local runners who made the five- or six-hour drive -- Go GVH! Go CheckersAC!

It's somewhat bittersweet to me, though, as I am on the outside looking in. At age 59.25, I was running some of the best training I'd managed in more than a decade (actual paces, not just age-graded), and really looking forward to racing competitively at the national meets after turning 60. Then the sudden and complete crash-and-burn. Aargh, so disappointing! And, Dave, that's a gentle reminder what a difference 9 months can make :)

Well, I think I'll still run the 5K race this Friday. Most likely as a farewell to competition, a chance to see some old running pals, have a few beers, have a few laughs, share some memories. At this race last year, I was a little disappointed in my time, even though I won my age group and set my lifetime age-grade PR. Ha! It's all relative, isn't it. Success versus disappointment.

Hey, life goes on, big-picture, anyway. This morning, my second grandchild was born! A big boy at 9 lbs 6 oz. ... AND the night before last, my wife's first grandchild (girl) was born!

lucKY -- My condolences on the loss of your friend and for the loss to your running community. It's so difficult to accept that one can be so full of life at one moment, then suddenly gone. A few years ago, we lost a great local runner, coach, leader and organizer to a sudden heart attack. He was one of only two friends I invited to my wedding -- truly a wonderfully kind, energetic, enthusiastic and happy person. Such a loss ... and even these years later, so hard to believe he's gone. This Friday's 5K is dedicated to him, so he's particularly on my mind this week.

I guess I'm in a reminiscing mood this morning. This thread has been a great source of information and inspiration since I found it back in 2016. I was training for my first marathon in more than a decade, and armed with a brand-new smartphone -- hadn't been on LRC since 2004! Over the years, my fitness has waxed and waned, but these last few years have been a highlight. I recently came across my old running files in the attic, and for the first time, compiled my "Complete List of Marathons." What a roller-coaster ride (time -- age):

3:15:12 -- (22)

2:52:48 -- (22)

3:02:25 -- (22)

2:47:34 -- (23)

2:45:57 -- (23)*

2:40:30 -- (23)

2:47:52 -- (23)**

3:08:05 -- (24)***

3:36:12 -- (25)

3:55:00 -- (26)

3:21:17 -- (27)

3:39:32 -- (27)

4:05:31 -- (29)

3:36:33 -- (30)

3:31:41 -- (31)

3:20:47 -- (32)

3:26:25 -- (33)

4:07:42 -- (35)

3:35:59 -- (38)

3:12:46 -- (40)

3:48:13 -- (40)

4:29:34 -- (41)

2:56:03 -- (43)

3:25:27 -- (57)

3:07:23 -- (58)****

*Point-to-point with 17 mph headwind, 38 mph gusts; **My only marathon regret - in PR shape, but jogged the 1983 perfect-weather Boston! ***Official conditions -- 90 degrees, 80% humidity; ****Age-graded PR!

------------------------

Be well, friends. I wish I could have met some of you at the races this year! Well, onward and upward, one way or another. Happy trails!

KCGeezer refers to a race that was cancelled in Overland Park KS d/t lightning in the area. Problem with that course is that some organizers put the start/finish mats at the very same spot, and don't review the USATF certified course maps. Depending on where a particular 180 degree is (or is not) used, the finish mats need to be a good 100 feet BEYOND the start maps. That's a real problem with that location, as it's used for so many races and there's several variations to the way the course(s) can be set up and used. As we masters all know, only a track gives us complete accuracy, but we don't all like running track races and competitive ones for us can be hard to find within reach of our times and expenses.

Last week was 27 miles walking, 1 mile run (going 0.05 to 0.1 miles at a time), and 30 minutes of AirDyne work (old-school fan-bike that uses arms and legs). We have ordered tickets for the T and F Oly Trials, cannot wait to see that new Hayward Field and renew friendships there! Not to mention more runs on Pre's Trail.

Age graded times of 70% is a major success for me, sure would like to get back to that, too.

Allen1959 wrote:

Well, I think I'll still run the 5K race this Friday. Most likely as a farewell to competition, a chance to see some old running pals, have a few beers, have a few laughs, share some memories.

Welp, Allen1959, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but…..you’ve been bit, and you’ve got the disease. Like a Zombie you will rise up again whether you want to or not and I can guarantee you your running is never, ever, ever, never over. How many of us on here have been beaten down to the ground, again and again, but either we are too stupid or too stubborn to quit? We can’t. We might want to but it’s not a choice. I’ve been running 44 years and done the.. “I SWEAR I QUIT FOR THE LAST DAMNED TIME!!!” maybe, 20+ times….

Remember Ed Whitlock quit running for a full year on not one, but TWO occasions....before he went on to continue to break world records.

See ya later.....

Mike...what do you think of the Air-Dyne? Do you think it helps running? I've used them a lot. It's actually my favorite cross-training tool but I can never tell if it's actually helping my running or not. The new ones from Schwinn are beautiful...really quiet...great hand grips.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

It is pretty clear for me that 3-4 days a week of running is the limit. Anything more than that becomes counterproductive. I think the concept behind the FIRST program (“Run Less, Run Faster”) is solid for those struggling to find a balance as they age.

So one strategy: Run as many days a week as you can until it becomes counter productive adjust accordingly.

I enjoy running everyday now IMO because I reduced effort and found the sand.

Nick just posted his all comers sprint challenge I am inspired this is what I call racing for fun

Charlie,

Thanks. I have tried that, usually go too hard, or wear myself down. I function better in a routine: Monday, Wednesday and Saturday quality days, Tuesday and Thursday cross training, Friday easy, and Sunday off. The key for me is increased volume (Igy miles) and improved quality day stressor (duration/intensity). I do these things I always improve, relatively of course.

Igy

Charlie,

Thanks for advice you have given here- it definitely helped. It's also helpful to read everyone's stories the good and the rough as it adds a human touch to why people train, why they run and the trials and tribulations as well as the meaningful moments.

For myself I have to say just getting under 20 was a definite goal for this year which after a few early season races seemed improbable. Some of the thoughts on training plans here as well as trying different things just increased the ability to move the body efficiently for a longer time.

Will try another race on Labor Day. At a bit of a loss as to how to train for another race 9 days off another.

Ran 40 minutes Sunday easy, 38 minutes Monday and Tuesday w/strides on Tues run. Will do a training session tomorrow of 5X1000 planning for around 4 min. per 1000 with active recovery depending on how the legs feel. After that planning for easyish runs of about 3-5 miles leading into Monday's 5K. Legs were a bit tight the two days after Sat. race but much looser today.

Reading everyone's stories really puts a human touch to why everyone runs.

PTF, we have an older AD, and I don't have any idea of the feel/workings of the new ones, but would like to check them out. Ours has enough years on it that getting replacement bearings is very hard.

Fitness wise, I use it only when I cannot run, so just to maintain my CV fitness (heart/lungs) but don't think it helps the legs too much for running. We bought ours in the days before a good, home, quality ARC Trainer or eliptical was practical. It's too easy to jump on it and read and/or watch TV, but you have me thinking about checking out a new one or an elliptical soon. Do wish I could have a machine that gives me something greater than the 60 rpm's I go at, since my running is 180 steps/min.

Mike Lundgren wrote:

KCGeezer refers to a race that was cancelled in Overland Park KS d/t lightning in the area. Problem with that course is that some organizers put the start/finish mats at the very same spot, and don't review the USATF certified course maps. Depending on where a particular 180 degree is (or is not) used, the finish mats need to be a good 100 feet BEYOND the start maps. That's a real problem with that location, as it's used for so many races and there's several variations to the way the course(s) can be set up and used.

So it wasn’t just me! I ran that course a year ago and I could’ve sworn they’d moved the goalposts. Thanks for that info, Mike.

It gets better. On Monday, making up for lost mileage, I did a long run and got injured! Has this ever happened to anyone else, please say yes? I stepped on a stick with my right foot which projected it upward, like a snag on the Muddy Mo, and it caught my left ankle. I didn’t even know what had happened until I got home, very fatigued, unusually fatigued, and saw I had a bloody sock. I thought I had bruised my ankle; turns out I cut a 1cm gash in it! And my poor body was sending all kinds of healing energy (or whatever) to the wound as I cluelessly bounded along. No wonder I was wiped!

Now I’m back on Bactrim, my old NIH drug, and hobbling around. I’ll be fine.