Systematic Doping in Track and Field

Sorry if I don't know anything about Raymond Tanui. He was a so strong athlete that I never heard of him. Which PB he has, who is his manager, where is he from, in what period he competed ? Can somebody knowing every secret of Kenya enlighten me, that don't know anything about Kenyan athletes ? Because it very strange that I know may be 1000 Kenyan athletes, apart Raymond Tanui.... So your is of course an example that can be extended to all the Kenyan athletes...

Now that you've mentioned it, I can see why it never even crossed my mind to mention it.What I did say can be easily disproved with factual counter-examples.

trollism wrote:

You forgot East African runners smile a lot and the fact that it's not in their culture to cheat at anything.

Apart from Raymond Tonui that is, but he never tested positive. I reckon he was just innocently keeping it in his fridge for one of his friends (obviously not African).

Renato Canova wrote:

Sorry if I don't know anything about Raymond Tanui. He was a so strong athlete that I never heard of him. Which PB he has, who is his manager, where is he from, in what period he competed ? Can somebody knowing every secret of Kenya enlighten me, that don't know anything about Kenyan athletes ? Because it very strange that I know may be 1000 Kenyan athletes, apart Raymond Tanui.... So your is of course an example that can be extended to all the Kenyan athletes...

Raymond was being managed by Ian Ladbrooke at the time. Ian discovered the drugs in the refrigerator at the flat where Raymond was staying in the UK. Upon discovery, Ian reported this to UKA. Raymond was soon thereafter banned and cooperated with the IAAF, informing them who he was training with at the time and who encouraged him to procure the drugs. He supposedly had a prescription for the drugs given to him by a doctor in Kenya. His best result was at RAK in 2009.

The reason tanui is interesting - is that while Renato says that only the best kenyans could ever afford drugs - this is an example of a more modest kenyan (1:02:33) who apparently had access.

So does it become uninteresting when Renato never said that?He said that even the best could NOT afford team doctors, because it costs more than any gain.Do we know what Tanui paid, and what he earned from it? Was it cost effective?Maybe Tanui is what Renato means by "b)" below:

Renato wrote:

Do you think he is interested in spending 20,000 Euros for having a program from a doctor, when in one year, staying on the track, can have an income of no more than 10,000 USD ? And, because managers work with a gross percentage of 15%, do you think some manager is interested in paying for his doping, when the income is smaller than the cost ?

In athletics, there were only two different possibility of doping :

a) SYSTEMIC, from some Federation (as East Germany or URSS or Bulgaria in the period 1970-1990)

b) PERSONAL and SYSTEMATIC, without any control, from athletes that NEVER were among the bests, and thought that doping was the only way for reaching the top

I can see why he gets so defensive and angry, especially since they are personal attacks against him and his character, considering the dearth of facts there are behind the allegations. It doesn't take any knowledge or connection with reality to throw out unsupported allegations.What's missing from the accusers is any substantial reason to believe that doping is systematic today in any track and field event, road racing, cross country, men or women, let alone East Africans with Italian coach/doctors.I say if you got something, go after the athletes and the doctors. But so far, no one has anything.

labradoodle wrote:

Why has Canova become so defensive, angry even? Implying Kenyan's don't have the mentality or "will" to dope? Wow, Kenya really is the Christian cradle of the world. Personally, I say forget the athletes: go after these Italian doctors supporting, modulating, and administering the systemic and systematic doping regimens.

I think we're spoiling this fanboy's experience of the 'perfectly pure' sport that is distance running.

Why not start another 'Renato, I want to know how you coached Muhammed Ali and Roger Federer when they were at their peak?' thread to cheer yourself up?

Renato, Renato my friend: You know 1000 Kenyans but somehow has never heard of Raymond Tanui? I find this odd. You also appear to disregard others' questioning his legitimacy and doping when he was clearly 1. Caught 2. Confessed to obtaining dope from other Kenyans while living in Kenya 3. Charged 4.Suspended. You angrily respond to other's (Alberto) apparently equal knowledge and calling your bluff. I don't understand.

If doping is that rare in Kenya, I am almost positive this would have made the running news in that area amongst the locals (runners, that is). As a doctor with considerable knowledge of doping techniques, endless connections in that area, and seemingly coaching every top guy in East African, I'm pretty sure you would have some knowledge of this guy's rare "will" to dope. Just a thought:)

And what do you know, labradoodle? Please list some facts, or other evidence.

for me the smoking gun is the correlation between the emergence of EPO and the dramatic drops in the distance WR's....only other explanation is it is a stunning coincidence.

i am not a scientist. but the argument that EPO hurts some people's performance because of some particular element of their blood/anatomy etc reminds me of the absurd claim Armstrong defenders used to say, that the cancer episode helped him because it took away a lot of his muscle mass but not his engine, leaving him post cancer with the same cardiovascular ability pushing a much smaller mass--

trollism wrote:

I think we're spoiling this fanboy's experience of the 'perfectly pure' sport that is distance running.

Reading comprehension, my passive aggressive acquaintance:

Canova isn't claiming that all East Africans are someone too angelic to use performance enhancing drugs. He's claiming that the ones he coaches closely do not (based on his observation from working with them), and that for the truly freakishly talented among them, that blood enhancing drugs won't be effective. That is different than saying that "all East Africans are too pure of character to ever consume banned drugs" which is what you've portended throughout this thread.

labradoodle wrote:

Renato, Renato my friend: You know 1000 Kenyans but somehow has never heard of Raymond Tanui? I find this odd.

You really find it odd? Would you find it odd if Clyde Hart says that he's never heard of Joeal Hotchkins? Because a Kenyan whose best ever run was a 62:23 for 16th place at RAK in 2009 is no more noteworthy than an American whose best 100m was a 10.30 for 4th at the 2010 Jim Bush Invite.

Fletcher Christian wrote:

That is different than saying that "all East Africans are too pure of character to ever consume banned drugs" which is what you've portended throughout this thread.

Nah sweety. That's something I've picked up from the ostriches on this site over a number of years, it's nothing to do with this thread. Just ask the likes of Douglas Burke.

Do you honestly think Canova is going to say anything other than 'all my athletes are completely clean'? These Italians need to be facing lengthly jail sentences (or close to death in a recent case) before they admit anything, a few questions on a messageboard isn't going to make them spill the beans.

The guy is in the sport for the cash, and a good way to do that is exploiting Africans. Fair play to the bloke.

skeptic124 wrote:

for me the smoking gun is the correlation between the emergence of EPO and the dramatic drops in the distance WR's....only other explanation is it is a stunning coincidence.

It's the only other explanation? The only one? All other explanations have been refuted?

You see, doping makes sense for most of the top marks in most of the throwing events. The lists are often dominated by athletes who either tested positive themselves at one point or another, or came from countries where the federation did engage in systematic doping (and in some cases, still does). Koji Murofushi is the top hammer thrower in history who has both never tested positive and doesn't hail from a country with a history of federation supported country, and he's nearly 2m behind Sedikh's pre-Berlin Wall fall WR. That's telling.

In the distances you basically have records that were set in the era of some level of out of competition testing and have been intrinsically matched in the EPO test era, records that have been set in the EPO test era, records that have been set (blown apart) in the era of the EPO test, CERA test and the IAAF one hour rule, and women's records that are of either Chinese origin or predate the fall of the wall. Everyone knows you can junk the last group. After that, surely drugs have found their way to some extent into the others (those positive tests listed earlier on this thread say as much). But you've either got to have a federation working on your side (and it won't be a federation in the sixth poorest country in the world) or you have to be very lucky these days and hope that, once you're in the testing pool, that your name doesn't get pulled and testers don't come to your home or hotel room looking for a sample just after you've taking some drug, or that whatever "undetectable" thing you're using now doesn't come back at you now that your samples are stored for years later on. Or that you even miss a test, because as I'm sure you all know, even though it's only after three miss tests in an 18 month period that you get slapped with a one year ban, once you miss one, your name gets flagged so you can be sure testers will be coming your way soon thereafter (as happened with Ohuruogu).

trollism wrote:

Fletcher Christian wrote:

That is different than saying that "all East Africans are too pure of character to ever consume banned drugs" which is what you've portended throughout this thread.

Nah sweety. That's something I've picked up from the ostriches on this site over a number of years, it's nothing to do with this thread. Just ask the likes of Douglas Burke.

Do you honestly think Canova is going to say anything other than 'all my athletes are completely clean'? These Italians need to be facing lengthly jail sentences (or close to death in a recent case) before they admit anything, a few questions on a messageboard isn't going to make them spill the beans.

The guy is in the sport for the cash, and a good way to do that is exploiting Africans. Fair play to the bloke.

I think your case has some problems if your resting it on the rantings of Douglas Burke.

I don't suppose Canova would say anything other than to attest to the legitimacy of his athletes. But in that same vein, I wouldn't suppose that Valery Kulichenko would take to the letsrun messageboards on repeated occasions to offer verifiable information on Tomashova, Chizenko and Soboleva. You agree?

trollism wrote:

Fletcher Christian wrote:

That is different than saying that "all East Africans are too pure of character to ever consume banned drugs" which is what you've portended throughout this thread.

Nah sweety. That's something I've picked up from the ostriches on this site over a number of years, it's nothing to do with this thread. Just ask the likes of Douglas Burke.

Do you honestly think Canova is going to say anything other than 'all my athletes are completely clean'? These Italians need to be facing lengthly jail sentences (or close to death in a recent case) before they admit anything, a few questions on a messageboard isn't going to make them spill the beans.

The guy is in the sport for the cash, and a good way to do that is exploiting Africans. Fair play to the bloke.

If you really think that the Africans are serious dopers just imagine what Solinski has in his fridge.

i find it interesting that you state definitively that blood doping DOESNT WORK FOR TOP ATHELETES(ELITES). Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Trial and Error? Seems like you know alot about this

Renato Canova wrote:

I continue to say that blood doping with the strongest athletes doesn't work, and CANNOT work.

Are you implying that those top cyclists in the Tour, where doping is apparently rampant, are not "the strongest athletes"?!? Do you think steroids, HGH, etc, do not benefit the bodies of "strongest athletes" to recover/heal/build faster (regardless of the longterm consequences)? If that is the case, then you have lost any shred of credibility you may have had here.

Which kind of image you offer, about athletics, for young people having the passion of running ?

Denying the stuff even works is probably more detrimental than calling it out.

I put my face in this battle, I put in Letsrun, but I'll put also in Boston (I go there for the Marathon with Florence Kiplagat and Moses Mosop).

Well how about foreign athletes, from Africa in particular, start getting tested WEEKLY by an independent body if they want to race in this country!

Are you delusional? wrote:

Well how about foreign athletes, from Africa in particular, start getting tested WEEKLY by an independent body if they want to race in this country!

If they are in the testing pool, they will need to provide their morning and evening training locations, their home addresses and any alternative address where they can be found and when they'll be available at those locations. Whenever they deviate from that schedule, they need to inform the IAAF where they can be reached and a specific hour that they're available for testing.