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    • Green Coach
      • Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/22/2010 9:18AM
      • Green Coach
      • I'm curious on appropriate sets/reps plan for a weight lifting program for high school distance runners during the upcoming track season. I have read low reps and heavy weights and have also seen totally the opposite with light weights and high reps working on muscle endurance. Thoughts?
    • Runningart2004
      • RE: Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/22/2010 9:38AM - in reply to Green Coach
      • Runningart2004
      • Both. There is no such thing as a set in stone standard. Only what has worked or hasn't worked for your athletes. That's going to depend on available training time, training history of your athletes, and where they are in their preparation (off season, pre season, in season).

        For HS runners it might be best to focus on circuit training using machines then progress toward a circuit program using dumbells and more dynamic movements (db clean and press, db swing, etc).

        Notice I never mentioned sets or reps. Let the capability of your athletes dictate that. It would be wise to start with fewer sets (1-2) and more repetitions (10-15) and progress to more sets (3-5) and fewer repetitions (5-10) but unless you have a physically advanced HS runner (like Webb who looked 30 at age 18) I wouldn't bother messing with my usual recommendation of a single max set in the 4-6 range.

        Alan
    • Vern G
      • RE: Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/22/2010 11:09AM - in reply to Green Coach
      • Vern G
      • Train movements not muscles. Try body weight circuits for 15-20 seconds concentrating on proper technique/movement. Bump up the time every week or so and add dumbells for the more cordinated and stronger runners. The weight room is a nightmare when trying to get large groups through multiple sets and reps if you need to constantly add and remove weights from bars. Especially when kids have a hard time adding 45+45+10+10.
    • northern coach
      • RE: Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/23/2010 8:05AM - in reply to Green Coach
      • northern coach
      • Beware- heavy weights build muscle that weighs heavy when slogging round a xc course and affects performances!
        They need strong upper body and legs so use the machines as mentioned.
        If you insist on weights go for light with high sets/reps.
        Circuit training twice a week is ample for strength and body conditioning
    • junk master
      • RE: Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/23/2010 9:07AM - in reply to northern coach
      • junk master
      • Northern Coach is wrong about heavy weights building muscle.

        Runningart is right on, as usual.
    • Big Billie
      • RE: Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/23/2010 9:15AM - in reply to junk master
      • Big Billie
      • junk master wrote:
        Northern Coach is wrong about heavy weights building muscle.

        Runningart is right on, as usual.
        I lift heavy twice a week and now they call me Big Billie.
        When will this not gaining muscle process happen to me?
        If I want to get even bigger should I lift less, but more reps?!?!? Maybe I'm just a freak that gained mass by lifting heavy.
    • Runningart2004
      • RE: Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/23/2010 3:07PM - in reply to Big Billie
      • Runningart2004
      • You can gain muscle while lifting heavy or with more reps. Gaining mass has more to do with diet and is a process that involves more than one factor.

        I've not seen too many small powerlifters and they lift heavy all the time, most can't count higher than 10..or 5 for that matter....

        Alan
    • CanadaCoach
      • RE: Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/24/2010 11:56AM - in reply to Runningart2004
      • CanadaCoach
      • Runningart2004 is absolutely right. Body builders lift lighter weights with many reps and sets for volume. Weightlifters and other athletes who must stay light to stay in their weight class lift fewer reps and sets, yet heavier weights. It really depends also haw each athlete reacts to weight training.
    • Runningart2004
      • RE: Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/25/2010 8:34AM - in reply to CanadaCoach
      • Runningart2004
      • More importantly too is frequency of training. A powerlifter may be lifting 3-4 days a week hitting the big three lifts once or twice but typically hitting them heavy only once. A bodybuilder or regular gym rat may be lifting 4-6 times a week hitting each body part 1-2 times a week. In both cases regardless of the set and rep range the overall volume per workout and per training week is much much higher than anything a distance runner would or should reach.

        Even given the same lifting numbers and rep ranges you would see differences in total sets performed due to the difference in training effect for a powerlifter v a distance runner.

        General Example:

        114lb powerlifter benching 185 x 5:
        45x20, 95x10, 115x5, 135x5, 155x3, 170x1, 185x5 or max reps

        140lb distance runner bench 185 x 5:
        45x10, 95x5, 135x5, 185x5 or max reps

        Likewise, and for comparison, a powerlifter (or any general non-running athlete) including running in his program in order to cut weight might do the following:

        5min warmup, 8x60s sprint, 120s walk, 5min cooldown (just a generic example).

        In a nutshell......runners who lift shouldn't look at a weight lifter's (or gym rat's) workout for exact guidance. In the same way a non-running athlete isn't going to do 12-16x400m on the track. So think in abreviated terms instead of looking up the coolest thing in Men's Fitness or Muscle & Fitness or Flex or whatever.

        Alan
    • 777
      • RE: Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/27/2010 5:25PM - in reply to Runningart2004
      • 777
      • Runningart2004 wrote:
        Even given the same lifting numbers and rep ranges you would see differences in total sets performed due to the difference in training effect for a powerlifter v a distance runner.

        General Example:

        114lb powerlifter benching 185 x 5:
        45x20, 95x10, 115x5, 135x5, 155x3, 170x1, 185x5 or max reps

        140lb distance runner bench 185 x 5:
        45x10, 95x5, 135x5, 185x5 or max reps


        Alan
        I see no reason a distance runner should be benching 5x185, or do three "warm-up" sets. Waste of time if you ask me...time that would be better spent doing good old-fashioned pushups, which involve more muscles anyways. Do them "Rocky-style" if you want low reps. But perhaps you can answer a question for me, runningart:

        I was reading a book on lifting for runners and hurdlers from the late 70s by John Jesse, and he mentioned that runners tend to have overdeveloped chest muscles (eg pectorals) and underdeveloped upper back and neck extensors, which contributes to "round shoulders" and a hunched-over posture when an athlete is tired at the end of a race. Thoughts?
    • washed up 400/800/1200
      • RE: Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/27/2010 6:47PM - in reply to 777
      • washed up 400/800/1200
      • I bench 4-5 x 185 on a good day. A warmup set, 2-3 sets of 5 at a heavy but sub-maximal weight, then a max set of 4-5 reps. I'm 6'1 and 165 lbs so not very heavy. I could get back to 155 but I'd probably get slower if anything and weighing 145-150 would not be long term healthy and I'd get hurt. Pushups are basically useless - they tire you out in sets of 50+ but that doesn't make you strong or explosive which is the goal of the whole lifting for sports thing.

        As far as overdeveloped chest - most people have that because everyone loves benching at the expense of everything else. That's why you strengthen your back and shoulders, do a lot of dumbbell rows, cable rows, wide and close grip pullups with good form (all the way up, all the way DOWN) so you can do sets of 10+ comfortably, shoulder presses, other rowing work and lower back stuff (goodness, even moderate deadlifts or squats).

        Seriously, I'm at a point where I tell more or less the same plan to pretty much everyone who asks me for advice on this: focus on shoulders lats and back, do some chest, legs and lower back, skip out on pretty boy isolation exercises for smaller muscles(tricep kickbacks, too many bicep curls). You won't gain enough weight to make a difference except you'll stabilize your shit when you're getting eaten alive with 120 to go off of the last turn in the 800. At least at that point you can blame not being fit instead of a backache
    • washed up 400/800/1200
      • RE: Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/27/2010 6:51PM - in reply to washed up 400/800/1200
      • washed up 400/800/1200
      • Also to clarify the original question: I recommend working up to a warm-up set of 10 (light weight, very easy), a set of 5 at a submaximal weight, then 1-2 sets of 5 at maximal or close to maximal weight. Sometimes I do sets of 5 at a weight I could do 6 if I struggled my tail off. So lift heavy, you won't put on any serious weight above 25-30 miles a week if you don't eat the Michael Phelps diet. You aren't lifting enough volume to make that big of a dent in anything either
    • Runningart2004
      • RE: Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/28/2010 2:32PM - in reply to 777
      • Runningart2004
      • "I was reading a book on lifting for runners and hurdlers from the late 70s by John Jesse, and he mentioned that runners tend to have overdeveloped chest muscles (eg pectorals) and underdeveloped upper back and neck extensors, which contributes to "round shoulders" and a hunched-over posture when an athlete is tired at the end of a race. Thoughts?"

        MOST people in general, runners or not, have or develop over time overdeveloped chest compared to upper back/neck. Google: Upper Cross Syndrome. Also Google: Lower Cross Syndrome. They are old school descriptions of common problems.

        However, I haven't seen too many runners with any sort of overdeveloped chest. If anything it would be the opposite. I have however seen many runners with a tight lower back and look "fat" with a overly rounded stomach. Runners tend to develop an anterior tilt in the pelvis which leads to that old school Lower Cross Syndrome.

        As far as the 185x5 thing....you're reading far too much into those numbers. It was a general example and I pulled those numbers out of the sky, it could be 85x5 for all I care. It's about the execution, not the numbers.

        Also, there's nothing wrong with pushups. If someone is so phobic about creating muscle or fear the iron in anyway then do explosive pushups or feet elevated pushups or deficit pushups:

        1. Explosive Pushup 1: Pushup, on the up portion explode up and bring your entire body off the ground.
        2. Explosive Pushup 2: Same as #1 except only bring your upper body off the ground...aka "clapping pushup"
        3. Feet Elevated Pushups: Pushups with feet on a box, step, chair, etc
        4. Deficit Pushups: Hands on yoga blocks or steps or some other way to raise your hands.

        Other ways to make pushups more intense: spider man pushups, single leg pushups, med ball pushups, traveling pushups, weighted pushups....

        Alan
    • In question
      • RE: Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/28/2010 3:16PM - in reply to Runningart2004
      • In question
      • Hey, I found a pretty interesting web page on this topic, but I feel like I'm not getting the entire gist of it.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...te_note-12
        Specifically,
        1. Is hypertrophy the only way to increase strength or endurance in athletes?
        2. If training for extended periods of time with light weight (aka being an endurance athlete) does not result in "very effective tissue hypertrophy, then what does it do?
        3. If an endurance athlete is most often training with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, like bodybuilders, why don't we look like them?
        I know it's complicated, thanks in advance.
    • Not Alan
      • RE: Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/29/2010 10:10AM - in reply to o.O
      • Not Alan
      • Push Ups, Pull Ups, Dips, Planks, Lunges - something sustainable that can be done daily anywhere, anytime.
    • Runningart2004
      • RE: Sets and Reps for Lifting Program 12/29/2010 1:37PM - in reply to In question
      • Runningart2004
      • 1. Neuromuscular adapations also lead to muscular strength via increased muscle fiber recruitment. This is how the vast majority of strength improvement will come for runners.

        2. It increased muscular endurance. Think about what muscular endurance is. The ability for muscle fibers to contract over and over again or you can also think of it as the ability to hold an isometric contraction.

        3. You're reading too much into a wikipedia article. While some hypertrophy in distance runners will occur in slow twitch fibers it is highly offset and overridden by the hypotrophy of the seldom used fast twitch fibers. Basically, it benefits the body of an endurance athlete to lose muscle. This is forced on the athlete because of the nature of endurance training....you destroy and fatigue more muscle fiber than you can consume protein to repair. So your body reaches a homeostatis point by reducing the size of muscle (mostly fast twitch). Bodybuilders gain muscle because: a) they typically don't do much extensive cardio, b) they eat a lot, and c) they lift with the volume and frequency needed to sustain growth. A runner might lift twice a week, full body, 3 sets of 12-15 reps. A bodybuilder might lift 6 days a week, hitting each muscle twice a week, 3-5 sets of 12-15 reps. The total volume and intensity for the bodybuilder is much higher PLUS they aren't doing all that cardio which counters strength and muscle gain.

        I've written at length about strength training for distance runners on this forum. Search for it.

        Alan