Dr. Romanov and Pose Running

1) You translate your body about by pushing, not pulling. This is true regardless of your running style.

2) I don't know.

3) You certainly do fall while running, but you don't "fall forward" as some utter fools like Jeremy Huffman are fond of stating. Gravity only pulls you straight down. The confusion arises from the fact that gravity is a source of potential energy. Your leg behaves like a spring, storing the force of impact and releasing it against the ground. You do not "fall forward" however.

A disclaimer: I'm not a Pose coach, however I've studied Pose Method with a Pose-certified coach. The following are my opinions and interpretations of Pose Method and may not be accurate relative to what the real Pose folks believe and espouse.

1. I'm not exactly where what you mean. If you mean "push" as in "push off" with your feet - Pose Method would consider that an error. The intent is to fall forward (more comments on this in #3 below) and pull the foot from the ground. A great video out on YouTube is of Dr. Romanov running on an ice rink. It's a perfect way of showing how one can run without pushing off at all.

2. I think heel striking and heel/toe running is what is getting lots of attention, but to be honest I'm not convinced that specifically is the issue. I think the larger issue is that when heel/toe running the stride length tends to be too long and landing occurs WAY in front of the center of mass. Also when this occurs it also means the foot is spending quite a long time on the ground. I believe the really big issues are 1) landing under the hips (not overstriding) and getting the feet off the ground quickly, because our tendons and ligaments respond better and are more "springy" when this occurs.

3. The falling aspect can be confusing. Sometimes people will say they fall forward, while others will say that isn't possible - you can only fall down. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that we want to have the model being us being moved forward by a lean or fall (a rigid body, when falling, moves horizontally to a certain extent) rather than your legs and leg muscles driving/propelling us forward horizontally.

The lean is very slight and difficult to perceive visually. Check out this video. It's in super-slomo - so it's hard to see what it would look like full speed. The runner is a Pose coach from the Netherlands who just has outstanding form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eD8Y3Uff6A

Jim

Hi Jim,

So do you think Pose running is the more efficient, effective and safe method of running compared to a long striding heel striker with an SPM (stride per minute) below 180?

From what I have read, I agree with you that it is important to have a high stride frequency to maintain that "springy/bouncy" step, that foot contact of the ground should take place directly below the bodies COG(center of gravity) and that your foot should have a quick contact with the ground.

Dr. Romanov also talks about ground reaction forces having little to do with forward motion during pose running, another theory I would love to hear more about. Some data that measures different running styles on a force plate could make a but statement. Thank you for posting the video!

tucker0429 wrote:

Dr. Romanov also talks about ground reaction forces having little to do with forward motion during pose running, another theory I would love to hear more about. Some data that measures different running styles on a force plate could make a but statement. Thank you for posting the video!

It would be interesting to hear how exactly you believe that forward motion is created if not by exerting force in the opposite direction against the ground. Do you believe that gravity pulls you horizontally rather than vertically?

There must me some "ground reaction force" (friction) between the foot and the ground. If there wasn't and we leaned forward then we would just spin in space, which obviously would not be possible.

I distinguish between the "friction" I describe above vs. actively and proactively actually using leg muscles to drive the body forward. I think those are two very different scenarios. Most (pick your term: Power Runners? Traditional Runners?) view active front-to-back movement of the leg - via the hamstrings and glutes - as the primary horizontal propulsion mechanism. Obviously there must be friction between the foot and the ground if this is going to work.

This "falling forward" concept, which I admitted in my earlier post is a bad phrase, is not the same concept. Imagine you had a 6 foot pole. The center of mass would be at the 3 foot mark. If that pole is stood up and is not quite vertical it will fall down. If the point where the pole touches the ground does not move, then the center of mass of the pole will be on the ground *3 ft in front of* where the pole was standing. The downward pull of gravity causes the rigid object to rotate and, since it's rigid, the center of mass must move horizontally. This situation ALSO requires friction between the object and the ground.

So my take is that I'm not claiming there is no ground reaction force. I am claiming that the primary source of forward movement comes from having a rigid posture that ends up rotating, NOT because active use of hip and thigh muscles are driving and propeling the body forward.

I do believe Pose Method (and Chi Running and Evolution Running) are less impactful on the body and can enable less injury-prone running. I'm not saying it's for all - but it can be a good tool for people who have bad form or chronic issues.

Jim

Just like how when you are running you move down the same distance you move forward, and end up lying down after each step, right?

I'm not following your point/question. Obviously we don't fall all the way to the ground. A foot gets placed on the ground to stop the rotation/fall.

Are you disagreeing with my post?

Haselsmasher wrote:

I'm not following your point/question. Obviously we don't fall all the way to the ground. A foot gets placed on the ground to stop the rotation/fall.

Are you disagreeing with my post?

Go take a statics class.

While you're waiting for the gravity to save you some energy, Haile Gebreselassie is using his glutes to triple-lap you over 1500m.

I laid out my thought process. If you want to refute it then explain why. If I'm wrong I can handle it.

Either engage in a debate or don't.

Jim

And I'd be happily cheering on Haile while he laps me - because my goal is not speed. I'm an old man - 49 years old. I have no desire or chance of every winning anything. I'm not trying to make the case that these forms are the key to the fastest times.

The OP had questions about Pose. I was just trying to answer them.

Jim

I never fully understood the explanation for POSE until I watched a video of Dr Romanov running on ice.

You go run on ice....that is the POSE method.

As for 85% of runners being heel-toe....that is because of the running shoes that are manufactured.

For some reason shoe manufacturers feel you either have to have big-heeled trainers OR minimalist shoes....that there is no middle ground.

Why can't/won't shoe manufacturers produce a trainer that has zero heel-toe ratio (that has 1/2" cuhioning in the heel; 1/2" cushioning in the forefoot).

Opinions?????

I think there has been movement in this direction in the Adidas Adios and Adidas Mana which both have "forefoot propulsion padding". I have been running in the Adidas Adios on my long runs for almost a month now and would like to try the Mana's. I use Asics Hyperspeed 2's and Adidas RC's for any running on softer surfaces and shorter distances and while they aren't flat, there is much less of a heel lift than a trainer.

Jim and Teetotaler,

I have noticed that elite runners tend to lean less through the lumbar spine while extending more through the hip using the glutes. I think this is an important note because it is at the hip where you will get the greatest propulsion because it has the most ROM to work through. If you look at african runners, they are very skinny through the lower leg and exhibit the tear drop thighs with most of their muscle in the proximal end of the bone keeping most of their mass closer to the center of gravity. This would indicate they run using primarily glutes, quads and hams while striking almost directly beneath their center of gravity. but looking at their trunk posture, they appear to be almost completely vertical.

I wish I had video to measure the angle off vertical from midfoot contact through the thoracic spine for elite africans, elite americans and sub-elites of both.

ASTERIX, GET OVER HERE AND RESTORE ORDER!

Pose is weird.

They take an extreme view and don't think that muscle contraction's produce "speed".

Forget it, if you want to learn the ins and outs of biomechanics of running, read this:

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2010/08/how-to-run-running-with-proper.html

1) If the 6 foot post rotates forward with a fixed base the COM moves forward. You only get this benefit once unless you rotate back to the initial position.

2) If the 6 foot post maintains a constant angle, then the COM isn't moving forward and the propulsion has to come from something else.

3) Assuming the 6 foot post is rotating forward and a force is applied vertically behind the COM, it would only accelerate the rotation (a forward flip?). The only way to counter the rotation is to apply a horizontal force behind the COM.

* The ice rink is not a frictionless surface. If it were, he could have never started moving to begin with.

The Pose method may create an efficient running motion. I just don't think the physics support the explanation given.

Response to 2)

What if the post doesn't maintain a constant angle? A higher stride rate with foot contact directly under COM and a quick application of force from the foot to ground would limit vertical motion but not eliminate, apply horizontal force and thus motion, but also slightly change COM with each stride just to a minimal amount.

If it is oscillating, then there is no net motion of the COM. Hence, no forward motion for a runner.

The only way for it to oscillate is for there to be a periodic force applied to the ground. If that force were vertical and behind the center of mass it would essentially result in a forward flip. Hence the force must be horizontal - it is this horizontal force that propels us as runners not gravity.

I'm not any kind of expert on POSE (beyond website research), but I did well in first year physics. Here's my 2 cents.

I think this idea of falling forward only makes sense figuratively. It's a way of getting you to think differently about technique, that enables you to train certain "new" techniques in phases of your running gait (i.e. pulling your leg up, rather than pushing off), and de-emphasize others, to bring about the desired changes in running form. So thinking about pulling your leg up, may mean you still push off, but just push off less.

The physics have been analyzed to death before, in lots of other threads, but basically, you cannot escape the simple fact that what goes down, must come up. If you fall down at all, due to gravity, something has to bring you back up, in order to fall down again.

But POSE runners talk about falling forward, not down. When you think about your running, at some point your foot is stuck to the ground, held in place by static friction, and your body has a forward momentum, and this generates a torque (or should I say angular momentum?) around the planted foot. Once the center of mass is in front of the foot, gravity can contribute to accelerating the rotation, only if the center of mass falls (i.e. potential energy converts to kinetic energy). But if you want to repeat the process at the next step, one of your feet has to bring the center of mass back to the same initial height. I guess this typically happens when you push off, as you become slightly airborne with both feet off the ground. If it doesn't, then the landing foot will have the duty of restoring the center of mass to the right height. You only have two feet, and they are the only thing in contact with the ground as you run (unless you really fall).

I think POSE can help you, only if there is something wrong with your current form, and learning POSE gets you to correct it. If you are running like a pogo-stick, POSE may get you to be less bouncy, and save some of that energy for going forward.

POSE can help correct certain kinds of injuries, as it moves the stress of running from your hips and knees, to your ankles and calves. When you learn POSE, you usually need to do drills to strengthen your ankles and calves.

For me, the biggest problem with POSE, it's that it's only available to you through an info-mercial type weekend seminar.

Keep in mind that Haile G and Usain Bolt likely learned proper form without Dr. Romanov.