Marathon Training Thread - Week Ending 7/18

Some mighty impressive training on this thread. Makes me wish I had more time to train than I do so I could get really fit again. Age, work and family responsibilities take their toll but I trying.

Goal Amsterdam 10/17

Time Goal: sub 3:15

M 8 miles easy recovery pace 63:33

T 2 miles up, 4 mile tempo 6:30/13:08(6:38)/19:48(6:40)/26:28(6:40), 2 min walk, 4x100 strides, two miles down. 8 miles total

W 10 miles, easy recovery run 1:20:17

T 8+ miles with 30x1min pick up to 10k pace (30sec recovery) 62:00

F 8 miles recovery, 62:55

S 16 miles, hilly route, warm at start, hot at finish. 2:09:32. Ran easy due to heat

S Planned rest day

58 miles for the week. Heat made it tough this week. 100 degrees every day here in inland SoCal. Down to low 90's today. Keep up the great work.

Goal Race: Chicago

Goal Time: 2:30

I'm in Arizona now and the heat is a little ridiculous. 108 today but the humidity is not as bad a I expected. But still, I am sweating by the time I step out on the sidewalk. Otherwise with all this travel I am having trouble cracking 100mpw but workouts are still going ok.

M: 10

T: 15: 4mi @ 5:29, 2:30 rest, 2mi @ 5:24 (Pouring down rain. Coolest evening all week. Didn't feel like slogging out a longer tempo in wet shoes.)

W: 8 + 6

T: 15.5 w/ track workout 2x800 (2:29, :29) w/ 90s rest, 4x400m (71, 70, 69, 68) w/ 60s rest, 4x200m (32, 32, 31, 31) w/60s rest. Stopped 200s when I felt a little strain in my PF.

F: OFF (Travel to AZ with my daughter. Probably good to rest the PF anyway)

S: 8.5 + 7

S: 13 + 6 + 70min bike ride

89

My long run got cut short by some good ol' dehydration. I was out the door by 5AM and planned to stop and rehydrate after 12. I should have stopped earlier b/c I was wiped enough to bail. My brother convinced me to go riding with him as soon as I had showered and was going to sit down for breakfast. He's a very strong cyclist and probably likes to remind me of that whenever I visit. ;) A lot of aerobic work for me Sunday.

chicago 225

rough week, Heat and humidity are really bad!

mon 5 easy

tues am 12 with 1000 meter pickups at 520-530pace, 1 min

recovery pm 5 easy

weds am 12 easy pm 5 easy

thurs am 5 easy pm 11 with trail 5k 16:31, 3min

recovery 2x mile 1 min recovery 530, 525

Fri 9 miles easy

Sat 9 duathlon, 2 mi 1055, 16 mi bike was horribe due

to all milage and no bike training, 5k 1730 runs

were on trail, grass and

mud

Sun am 18 SLOW sore and at hottest part of the day! Pm 6

easy

total 97 miles legs really tired all week from the past 2 weeks being over 100 with a lot of good efforts!

music is happiness - Very solid 8k! But damn, a 26:48 got you 40th place?!? This race must've stacked.

Pittsburgh Joe - Nice week...89 with a cut long run and a day off is a good week. BTW, I don't know what your 5k PR is, but I ran a near identical workout to your Thursday workout 10 days out from a 15:48 5k about 2 months ago. I'd say you're in pretty good shape! Do you have any tune up races planned?

General question for the LR marathoners on this thread:

Do any of you guys (and gals) do significant amount of mileage on the treadmill? Especially now in the dog days of summer...it might be good to mix it up every now and then to remember we're not slowing down, just being slowed by the heat.

Personally, I don't use the treadmill at all...but only because I don't have easy access to one. I would probably use it a lot more if it was in my living room.

When you guys do intervals like the 800s, 400s, 200s, do you just kind of stand around/jog a little for your 60-90 seconds, or do you cover a specific distance? Also, do you let the clock roll?

I let the clock roll on Saturday while I was doing 200s and made sure I got through a full 200 in 60 seconds before starting the next one. I didn't realize what a difference it makes from stopping your watch and standing around for 60 seconds. The stopping the watch must add 15 seconds, which is not a trivial amount of time, and standing or slowly jogging for 60 seconds versus running a 200 in 60 seconds is a big difference.

I am running a 5 Miler in a few weeks. Maybe I'll try the 2x800, 4x400, 4x200 workout next week 10 days before the race to get the legs turning over and mix it up with the 200s I did last week and plan on doing this week.

Pablo: I "might" be able to roll a sub-16 5k but I'd probably have to prove to myself that I can run 5min/mile intervals, which I haven't done for like 10yrs. I seem to aerobically max out at when I hit 5:20 pace. Seriously, I feel relatively comfortable there but anything faster and I think the wheels will fall off. I could probably get myself in 5k shape in a few weeks but I don't think I have that kind of range right now. If I could find a local and FLAT 5k I wouldn't mind jumping in. Who knows. Maybe I'd surprise myself? That you can pop a 15:50 during high mileage is no easy feat!

Oh, and I was on the dreadmill today in my hotel. Pretty awful but compared to 106 degrees in the shade it was great. I generally avoid them but I was happy to climb aboard today.

3TM: I let the clock roll (just hit the lap button) when I come through the line. I try to keep moving (jog, shuffle, walk if need be) during the interval, depending on how I feel.

Hey Pablo: Until about a year ago, i used the mill alot. My experience has been that you need to take the mill paces with a grain of salt. In other words, MP that you think you are it (because you were able to sustain it on the mill) does not reflect well into race times. With that said, it is an excellent tool for slow recovery runs and for tempo runs if you closely monitor your heartrate (and not the pace).

For this cycle, i am avoiding it as much as possible. However, because of the heat and because i don't want to wait so late until it cools off at night, i have been using it periodically to warmup and to kill some time until it cools off outside. So, e.g., for a 15 miler, i may do 2-5 easy miles on the mill, and then head outdoors for the balance. This seems to be working for me, and it is a great psychological way of avoiding the dread of doing 15 miles in 80+ degrees.

3TM I simply hit "lap" and then kind of shuffle around, walk, then walk-jog, then jog, and then resume! It may not be optimal, but i need the break. Whatever works.

Another topic. I have been upping the mileage considerably (for me) but also doubling more than i have in the past. I feel like i am in great shape now. My heartrate across all paces is literally around 10 bpm lower than in the past. I am wondering if this is more due to the increase of overall volume over the past 3 weeks or due to the doubling. Perhaps the answer is simply "whatever works"!

I tend not to use the treadmill unless its hailing or something. I would 99% of the time rather run outside.

As for the jog recoveries, depending on what type of workout you're doing, you guys should try and cover some distance during that 60 second recovery. It really makes the workout very aerobic.

I ran 1:56 my sophomore year in college, and I always thought I should have run faster. I did one workout where I ran 4x400 in 57, 56, 56, 55 with 5:00 recoveries, another where I did 12x200 with 200 rest in 25-26, and another when I ran a 600 in 1:25, 300 recovery, a 300 in 39, 150 recovery, 150 in 19 (all on indoor tracks). Yet I only ran 1:56 (and even that was out of the blue. I was mostly running 2:00 and then ran 1:58 and 1:56). I always thought 1:53 was doable.

But now I see what the issue was. I was not aerobically strong at all. I could pound out fast repeats, which is fine if you're running a 400, or even a 600. My muscle memory was great and I taught my muscles how to run fast. But my aerobically, I was incredibly weak (even though I could generally hammer a 10 miler).

If you look at that 200 workout, yes, I had a 200 jog, but I would stop after the interval, stretch for maybe 10-20 seconds, then start a stumble, then by 100 out, the stumble would turn to a jog and then before the interval, I would come to a creep again, and then take off. All in all, I was EASILY taking 2+ minutes to get through 200 meters.

Had I slowed up my intervals to say 28-29 (which would have been cruising back then... now its probably closer to 34-5) but went straight into my 200 recovery and did that in 60 seconds, I think I aerobically would have had a lot of trouble (though muscularly it would have been fine). I think if I had done that more, I would have been a lot better.

Looking back, our best 5k guys and milers always "hammered" their recoveries. I thought they were pretty stupid. Turns out the joke was on me and, quite frankly, it clearly is why I was a workout hero. Anyone can pound an interval with sufficient rest while tricking themselves that they're only taking 200 meters recovery. Not everyone can run controlled and run an uptempo recovery. THAT takes aerobic strength! I always though "workout heros" had mental issues more then physical ones. Afterall, how could they run so fast in a workout and then bomb in a race? I think its probably more like 5 out of 10 are not aerobically fit, and if you watch their workout, are likely taking their rests easier then their better teammates. I think 3 out of 10 are probably leaving their races on the track and 2 out of 10 are headcases. Of course, all may END UP head cases because they're not performing at the level they feel like they should be, but I don't think it starts that way.

The other thing that I found interesting is that you can be seemingly aerobically strong (i.e. be able to run a hard 10 miles) and fast (i.e. hammer a 200) but not be able to bridge the gap. I suppose its possible to have a high AT and be fast, but be very poorly trained in that V02Max range.

I think that is very much me. Hopefully its a weakness I can work on and make a strength. If so, I think I can do pretty well in the next few months.

Thanks for some of the feedback on the treadmill guys. Here's an article about Antonio Vega (winner of Houston Half Marathon) running 120 mile weeks to prep for Boston this year. I've also read that Brian Sell did a good number of runs on the treadmill as well. Though both of these guys come from places with very cold Winter's (Minnesota and Michigan respectively)...the same philosophy could be used for those of us with brutal summers.

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=19188

CTA - Ever since I've started training for marathons (about a year ago), I've found I feel much stronger on most of my day-to-day runs. I attribute this to my "second run" of the day. In college I would run 70-80 mpw on singles and be dragging ass all day. Now I'm doing 100-120 mpw on doubles and feeling so much better than I ever did on singles. I think this is due to the second run being a recovery - go as you feel - type run, where I flush out all the soreness in my legs, keeping my fresh (relatively) for the main run of the day. I don't have any science to back that up...just my personal experience.

Pittsburgh Joe - I think you would surprise yourself. Judging from some of the workouts you post...you do posses decent speed.

3TM - 12x200 in 25-26!!!! That's crazy fast! I've run a 25 before...once. I agree with the others about keeping the clock rolling. It depends on the type of workout whether I do jog recoveries or "stand around and shuffle" recoveries. Most of the time it's jog...but if it's a short rest (<60 seconds) I'll stand around.

Back in the day I had some decent wheels. I never really tried when I was at my fastest, but I would think I could have been pretty close to splitting low 50 for 400. In HS I ran plenty of 52s and I was a lot faster my 1st two years of college. I am awfully slow now, but haven't worked on the speed in a long time. It would be interesting to see if I spiked up if I could break 30 right now (though I would probably tear my plantar). I would guess not. Years of no running and then just mileage crushes your speed.

I am seriously contemplating not waiting until NY next year to "retire". My wife is being patient, but is very much hinting that she wants the running to cool off, and if I run sub 2:40 in Chicago, I think I'll have a PR that I'm proud of. My body doesn't recover like it used to, and I really need to concentrate on work more. Plus, its only a matter of time before my son outgrows his nap, and then the weekends become logistical nightmares.

Not saying I won't plug forward to NY 2011 (chances are I will), which has always been my plan, but right now, Chicago is all I am concentrating on. HOWEVER, I have decided if Chicago does end up being my last, I will still probably race competitively though next winter and try and get some of that speed back. Maybe try and get under 4:30 indoors all the way up to running a decent half in the early spring.

Pittsburgh Joe

For a flat 5k, they don't get any flatter than the Turtle Trot in Turtle Creek. Race is in two weeks (July 31). Might be my first race to test repaired achilles.

When doing Daniels' R-pace intervals I jog the same distance as the interval, for I-paced intervals I jog 1/2 the distance. For T-paced intervals, I just walk around.....

I have no clue what I did in H.S. but just remember the workouts seem hard. We used to do the 500/300 workouts (500 in 59-60 sec pace), 45 seconds rest then 300 in 44-45. Also did 300/200 with 30 seconds rest. Lots of rest in between those suckers....

3TM - You can always retire early and then comeback in 5 years for a 2nd career!

Haha... have had too many "2nd careers" already. Retired after college, had a second career 2 years later. After 8 months retired again, only to have a 3rd career 1.5 years later. That career lasted 2.5 years before retiring again due to injury. That retirement lasted for 2 years. Thought for sure that was it, and now I guess I'm in my 4th career! Not an ideal way to set PRs... 5.5 years of the last 10 have been off! Each comeback get's progressively harder. The next one is it!

3TM wrote:

Haha... have had too many "2nd careers" already. Retired after college, had a second career 2 years later. After 8 months retired again, only to have a 3rd career 1.5 years later. That career lasted 2.5 years before retiring again due to injury. That retirement lasted for 2 years. Thought for sure that was it, and now I guess I'm in my 4th career! Not an ideal way to set PRs... 5.5 years of the last 10 have been off! Each comeback get's progressively harder. The next one is it!

You should announce your "decision" on primetime TV during an hour long special. Then talk about useless crap before making your actual uneventful announcement, then commentators can spend the next 30 minutes breaking down your "decision". People will watch it....I'd watch it.