sorry about the double post, I kept getting the "elves" message.
sorry about the double post, I kept getting the "elves" message.
For what it's worth, Tinman (has posted here in the past) recommends "CV" intervals (just a fancy way of saying 15k-20k paced intervals) of around 800-1200m basically year round, and slower tempos (near marathon pace, probably) also basically year round. I'm not a believer in "the Tinman system" any more than I am in any one man's training philosophy, but the idea is that 15-20k paced stuff is fast enough to work on vVO2max as well as lactate mechanisms, without burning you out or causing excess stress, so it can be done year round or close to it.
I personally do a base phase just because I don't want to do the same training all year round; my base phase consists mainly of a long run, lots of medium length easy runs, some easier fartleks, strides, and an occasional tempo or progression run.
wellnow wrote:
MasterDisaster wrote:I'd agree with Craig as far as base not being 100% long slow distance. The goal is to tax the aerobic system and to develop capilary and mitochondria to help boost your aerobic capacity. Lydiard, Pfitzinger and Daniels all have base phases in their programs so if you are a distance runner it's probably a good idea to at least run the majority of your mileage at a good, strong aerobic pace. For some people that's 9 minute pace, for some it's 5:45.
In the book Born to Run there's mention of a stat where Joe Vigil says the average Kenyan distance runner has an 18,000 mile advantage as a teenager over the average teenager running in America. That's some serious base mileage right there.
Kenyan teenagers without a huge mileage base will probably do much better than runners from developed countries who have run more mileage, because they will have much better developed feet. This is a huge advantage. Try walking on a pebble beach. It hurts doesn't it, your feet are hopelessly weak. Strengthen them, and your whole body will feel much stronger when you run.
"School commuting base" or barefoot. It should be interesting to note that in the 1960's people were wondering whether an African was capable of running a 4 minute mile until Kip Keino did it. Also the African dominance didn't happen until the 1990's with the rise of professional track. It's not like the Kenyans only started walking barefoot and running to school in the 1970's.
What a shame the barefoot cult felt the need to hijack this thread.
To answer the OP.
Some "pre-conditioning" work is necessary to get into shape of 2 to 4 weeks of easy running after a seasonal break. As for an actual "base", interval based systems (Franz Stampfl's book) go right into interval work but at a slower rate at the beginning of the season with a little more fartlek work. Igloi systems start off with interval work after 2 weeks of steady running, but also at a relatively low intensity ("faster than a jog").
Frank Shorter and Rob DeCastella's training throughout the year was relatively the same with 2 to 3 interval sessions and one long run a week year 'round with only the intensity changing if they took a break. Of course they raced throughout the year.
In short, a long base phase of steady running is not necessary. An initial phase of lower intensity running to get into shape, followed by a phase of lower intensity running/intervals/fartlek at a "high" volume appears to be universal in all training systems. (of course followed by a maintenance and then a sharpening period/tapering period). Even in football and basketball you have a high volume period (training camp), a maintenance period and then tapering during playoffs.
Time Constraints wrote:
Is the base phase really necessary?
Can one just enter right into interval/speedwork training without a base?
My dear fellow runner. Yes it is very necessary.
One of the main purposes of the "base phase" of moderately paced miles (slowly mixing in faster work) is to strengthen they muscles, tendons, ligaments and connective tissues, so that your legs don't seize up and strain when you do the fast stuff.
Working hard, doing the right stuff at the right time, is the only way to succeed...be patient.
Jason
www.666energy.comThat's one thing that i apprecisated about Brad hudson's book..
He incorporated all phases of training all year round emphasizing as a proportion of the training, aerobic or speedwork depending on what time of the year it was...
If you already have a good base from doing other things or from whatever your last running cycle was then sure. But I just started a 10 week base cycle because trying to complete intervals was killing my body. The intervals and speed work is all specific and for sharpening the ability you gained from your aerobic base work.
My base work consists of (1 or 2 fartleks a week, usually a long run, a 5k tempo, a 8k tempo, and 3 easy runs)
The intervals I tried (4 x 800m @Mile w/1:30 walking rest, 6 x 400m @800m w/2:00 walking rest, 3 x Mile @Mile, 5k, 8k w/3:00, 4:00 walking rest)
Some of it depends on how you as an individual respond to mileage / speedwork.
The slower twitchers seem to need more volume to respond well while the fast twitchers seem to need lots of speed to get the needed stimulus to perform well.
I have lots of base years under my belt but I still need to "be in shape" and that means lots of miles per week still for this slow twitcher.
Walking on nails wrote:
Kenyan teenagers without a huge mileage base will probably do much better than runners from developed countries who have run more mileage, because they will have much better developed feet.
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Right, tough feet. Or maybe it's a higher vo2 max. Or better running economy. Or enhanced glycogen loading, probably from drinking chocolate milk. Or pure water to drink, not Coke. Or Ugali, no french fries. Or just 1500 calories a day, doesn't matter what the f... they eat: Leaner is meaner. Or skinny calf muscles. Or lighter bones for flying over steeplechase barriers. Or better genes. Or an enhanced epigenetic environment. Or high altitude living. Or the motivation of money. Or cattle raising culture. Or many heroes to emulate. Or they hate soccer, so focus only on running. No, wait, they hate boxing, so focus only on running. Or warm, dry climate is great for training year round. Or lack of smog prevents exercise induced asthma. Few TVS, kids must play stickball in streets. No iPods, no one dreams of growing up to be Lady Gaga. No cineplexes, no one dreams of becoming Sidney Poitier. No high school and college running programs; we all know it's the damn coaches and meet pressures that screw up American kids.
Nah, come to rethink it all, any idiot can see it's obviously the tough feet. That also explains why so many of those walk-on-nails-and-hot-coals dudes from India have run sub 2:06 in the marathon. End of debate.
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Well, Mr Smartass, good luck coaching your young runners to those Olympic Gold Medals and World Records.
Idiot.
historybuff wrote:
wellnow wrote:Kenyan teenagers without a huge mileage base will probably do much better than runners from developed countries who have run more mileage, because they will have much better developed feet. This is a huge advantage. Try walking on a pebble beach. It hurts doesn't it, your feet are hopelessly weak. Strengthen them, and your whole body will feel much stronger when you run.
"School commuting base" or barefoot. It should be interesting to note that in the 1960's people were wondering whether an African was capable of running a 4 minute mile until Kip Keino did it. Also the African dominance didn't happen until the 1990's with the rise of professional track. It's not like the Kenyans only started walking barefoot and running to school in the 1970's.
What a shame the barefoot cult felt the need to hijack this thread.
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Barefoot cult? grow up and wise up old man, and get yourself a clue. You're obviously missing the rather obvious point. I'll state it simply; weak feet = slow running. GOT IT?
Time Constraints wrote:
Is the base phase really necessary?
Can one just enter right into interval/speedwork training without a base?
Yes base phase is necessary, but you can and should save a lot of time by including interval/speedwork training in your base.
Get the miles in when you don't have as much races so it doesn't matter if you get hurt, you don't have to race.
wellnow wrote:
historybuff wrote:"School commuting base" or barefoot. It should be interesting to note that in the 1960's people were wondering whether an African was capable of running a 4 minute mile until Kip Keino did it. Also the African dominance didn't happen until the 1990's with the rise of professional track. It's not like the Kenyans only started walking barefoot and running to school in the 1970's.
What a shame the barefoot cult felt the need to hijack this thread.
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Barefoot cult? grow up and wise up old man, and get yourself a clue. You're obviously missing the rather obvious point. I'll state it simply; weak feet = slow running. GOT IT?
The "obvious" point is that weak ANYTHING along the musculo-skeletal kinetic chain and poor cardiovascular conditioning = slow running. (weak knees=slow running, weak hips=slow running, weak lungs=slow running, weak heart=slow running, etc)
And strong feet alone (folks in India) have not resulted in a group of fast runners.
The main point of this thread is the importance of (pre)conditioning ALL functional parameters involved in running in a safe (low intensity) manner prior to engaging in riskier high intensity training. Once the body is conditioned then there is lower risk of injury when performing high intensity training.
www.666energy.com wrote:
My dear fellow runner. Yes it is very necessary.
One of the main purposes of the "base phase" of moderately paced miles (slowly mixing in faster work) is to strengthen they muscles, tendons, ligaments and connective tissues, so that your legs don't seize up and strain when you do the fast stuff.
Working hard, doing the right stuff at the right time, is the only way to succeed...be patient.
Jason
http://www.666energy.com
I like your post until the very end. Now I can't take you seriously after clicking on that link.
Is it real-wellnow or mod-wellnow on this page?
The Peter Snell quote from earlier is the most consummate and informed comment on the debate thus far. The so-called "quality" work anyone does is, practically speaking, limited to the physiological results yielded by aerobic "easy" running. Of course, not every runner who has run 6 straight weeks of 60 miles will respond the same way to the same subsequent quality workouts. The individual physiological profile influences this as well. At the end of the day, though, the more used you are to running more miles, the more benefits you will reap from more intense workouts. All this said, "base phase" in the traditional sense is not "necessary", but the more you develop your aerobic capacity through lower-intensity running, the more easily you will be able to endure high-volume, high-intensity interval-type sessions, and thus enjoy greater and greater improvements. Regardless of how you structure your training schedule, CONSISTENCY is king. You keep training, you'll keep improving.
According to Lydiard, the base phase is the most important. It is the foundation that all the other phases are built on. He advocates continuing the base phase for as long as possible before a competition. The base phase is not slow jogging or Long Slow Distance. After warmup, you should be running near the top of the aerobic threshold without going anaerobic. Don't count your short warmup or cooldown in your mileage. Aime for 100 miles a week if you are serious about brakthroughts. It is miles run at close to the threshold that count. The Africans often do progression runs that start very slow and end fast. Lydiard then says to do 4-6 weeks of hill trainging ( bounding ) and then about 5 weeks of track. You then do a few weeks of training specific to your event to sharpen and then taper. I have no talent and this plan got me to run times I did not believe possible. Read "Running the Lydiard Way" , the training articles by John Kellogg and Wejo ( on this site ). You won't get there by shortcuts. But if you find some good training partners, tne base is fun. By the way, do 4-6 100 meter sprints at the end of your runs a few times a week to keep your turnover fast. Good luck!
Is it "necessary".
What is "necessary" is that you get into shape before serious training. Whether you do just a month or 2 of aerobic work or "as long as possible" as Lydiard suggests is debatable at least for middle distances.
Given your screen name is "Time Constraints" you may want to read Roger Bannister's Bio:
His longest long run was 9 miles. He wasn't a super talent either in that he started running relatively late (age 16 with a mile debut of 4:52) and his PR's above and below the mile were modest (50 440, 1:50 880, 9:00 2 mile). In addition he would take breaks from running days at a time if he felt stale. And during the school year he had to squeeze his running into his 1 hour lunch period.
To summarize. To run relatively fast, a traditional multi-month mega miles base is not necessary. To reach your full potential, it probably is.
Base training always helped me. From a physiological (and just plain LOGICAL) stand-point, base training makes a lot of sense.
Just work up to 2-3 hours a day and race regularly.
It works for Ed Whitlock.