Is it OK to BANDIT a race?

scotth, i can't do that since i don't bandit races.

i'm just saying that there is a type of banditing that is cheap, and one type that at least has a point. you gotta give me that i have an argument, although i realize it's an opinion.

i'm unsure what you mean by the effected group though? clear that up. if i decide to pay the regular fee but not be chip timed, thereby negating my effort, in my own little world i made my little protest, and everybody else just moved up a spot. seems like a win-win to me and everybody goes home a little happier.

and don't be so dogmatic. trusting group wisdom has as many pitfalls as being an individual.

be specific with the faults you have in my argument. i won't be hurt. it's not like i'm a real advocate of this, more like a devil's advocate.

see you guys tomorrow.

I'm only posting this on the off chance that someone might actually read this far.

Yes, some people are that poor. And, though it may be hard for some of you to understand, some people don't have momies that can pay for their race. It is a sad fact that is very difficult for alot of people to understand. I work with these people every day. In fact, I was one of these people. I worked my butt off in school as an engineering major receiving no money from my poor parents, working 30 to 40 hours a week at minimum wage to help pay for school, and running on the college cross country and track teams. I was very poor. I was so poor that I rarely ate at McDonalds because I couldn't afford $3 for dinner when I had a packet of Ramen sitting at home. How did I afford shoes? I ate Ramen noodles for lunch every day.

Do I bandit races? No. I can afford not to. But I don't really care if others do.

rixctf, it's not clear from your post I replied to you actually paid to run a race. You never came right out and said you paid to race. On that note, it's nice to hear you don't bandit races.

Chip-optional races...where do they occur? Never heard of those. Just what kind of message do you think you're sending by paying but not wearing your chip? I have more than a handful of friends in the chip-timing business. I can assure you they don't care if you wear it or not. They just want it back.

I see you don't trust the opinions of the group, in this case, the affected group being those that paid to run. Do this (which is what I envisioned): go up to 10-15 runners on an individual basis and ask what they think of your plan to pay $20 (example), run chipless because you want to send the message you feel the entry fee is too high.

I see them giving you 10-15 strange looks.

There are no convincing arguments to support banditing races. None.

When I used to bandit races, I would stick around afterward and help pick up garbage, assist elderly runners getting back to their cars, and help load up the Porta-Potties. Meet directors would often call and ask me to bandit their race, but that became annoying after awhile, so I just paid the entry fees like everyone else.

When I was in college, our XC team put on a 5 mile race every year to raise money for our team. One year a man ran as a bandit. Our coach (used to be a hard core runner, 2:15 marathon, former USATF marathon champ, takes no shit from anyone) pulled this guy out of the chute when he finished and just started yelling at him. Man, I thought this grown man was going to cry! The lesson, if your going to bandit a race, don't do it in Platteville, WI. Tom Antczak will eat you alive!

Another Simple Question wrote:

Are you smoking something illegal or retarded?

Based on your question I'm going to guess that you have difficulty understanding my question. Ergo, I might ask you the same thing - are you smoking something illegal or retarded?

However, I would rather educate than retaliate. So feel free to point out why my post engendered such a mean response.

How do you smoke something retarded?

I say no. I'm presently in grad school, and my only income right now is a federal loan for educational expenses only. I spend very little ( < $50/month on groceries, no new clothes, rent very low, run to school as much as possible to avoid expenses on transportation), and I'm planning to race exactly once this year. Right now, I choose not to work because grad school is keeping me plenty busy. That means I don't have much money, and I accept that. If you choose not to work, thats fine; but you must then all else that comes with your decision.

Dirt Poor Runner wrote:

Your thoughts! I cannot afford to run all the races I want to, but I see no problem with hopping in a race from the back and pulling out before the finish!

Smoove wrote:

The lesson, if your going to bandit a race, don't do it in Platteville, WI. Tom Antczak will eat you alive!

I wouldn't recommend it in Winston-Salem, NC either. We have an former active duty marine (god help you if you say "ex-Marine") that manages some of our finish lines. Bill's a 2:29 marathoner and takes his racing SERIOUS. This guy finishes then tries to duck out of the chute. Bill's on him like flies on shit. Bill explains to him the errors of his ways in his most Marine like manner all the way down the chute. Poor guy about peed his shorts.

scotth wrote:

There are no convincing arguments to support banditing races. None.

Well I guess Scotth has solved this one for us folks. There is no need to keep reading, debating or thinking. Let's all just nod and agree when Scotth says there are no convincing arguments to support banditing. If anyone wants to raise a possible rebutal - remember - None!

scotth you are free to have your opinion but how about qualifying it somewhat by simply stating there are no arguments that will convince YOU? That is not the same as stating that there are no convincing arguments whatsoever. In fact I am convinced by many arguments in favour of banditing. So what does that mean? You say there are none. I say I have been convinced. We must accept either that you are right and I am not actually convinced, or that you are wrong. I prefer the latter.

One last thing scotth, before reading the rest of this message please note that I am asking that you send $5 to Letsrun.com to continue reading - that is the entry fee I have set to the rest of this message.

Three of my friends paid me 5 dollars each to allow them to read this message. I worked really hard to write this message. I bought a computer with my own money so that I could send this message. I had ten people volunteer to collect the fee to read it and to proof-read it.

If you read this message without paying the 5 dollar fee are you a bandit? If you think it is your right to read messages posting on a public (for the sake of argument) board, and if you think that I didn't lose anything by you not paying, and if you don't care if I am discouraged from posting again, and if you didn't think it was worth five buck but wanted to keep reading anyway, you have basically demonstrated just a few of the possible arguments in favour of banditing. Given that I assume you are still reading, enjoy wrestling with the guilt you must obviously feel knowing that you are now a message-bandit - and that goes for all you other free-riders that are reading this message for free too!

willsteele5000m wrote:

How do you smoke something retarded?

Obviously you have a lot to learn willsteele5000m, a lot to learn...

Keith Stone wrote:

I wouldn't recommend it in Winston-Salem, NC either. We have an former active duty marine (god help you if you say "ex-Marine") that manages some of our finish lines. Bill's a 2:29 marathoner and takes his racing SERIOUS. This guy finishes then tries to duck out of the chute. Bill's on him like flies on shit. Bill explains to him the errors of his ways in his most Marine like manner all the way down the chute. Poor guy about peed his shorts.

So it's not ok to bandit a race, but it is ok to intimidate and scream at a grown man in public? Thanks. Got it.

are you still a bandit if you "gallow-walk" the race?

hscott wrote:

If you read this message without paying the 5 dollar fee are you a bandit? If you think it is your right to read messages posting on a public (for the sake of argument) board, and if you think that I didn't lose anything by you not paying, and if you don't care if I am discouraged from posting again, and if you didn't think it was worth five buck but wanted to keep reading anyway, you have basically demonstrated just a few of the possible arguments in favour of banditing.

Geeze, and if you think that is actually a valid arguement, you've got a lot of logic missing.

If you snuck on to a New York to LA flight without paying, do you think you should get away with it? The plane (and fuel and crew) were going there anyways and there are empty seats. You're not going to eat the two peanuts or the semi-eatable snack posing as a meal they pass out. Nor are you going to try to squeeze yourself into the tiny washroom. The airline doesn't own the skies above the US. You, as a taxpayer, fund the operation of federal transport regulatory agencies and air traffic control, so you should be allowed to make use of them as you wish. Besides, whatever the price of the ticket is, it is far too much for them to expect you to pay for it, especially if you sleep during the in-flight movie.

What do you want to bet they won't have you up on charges of theft with a very good chance of winning?

Surprise! wrote:

So it's not ok to bandit a race, but it is ok to intimidate and scream at a grown man in public? Thanks. Got it.

Yes! Now we are getting somewhere. In many states, verbal intimidation is considered a form of assault and is definately illegal. So this is fun.

Although no one has been able to make a reasoned legal argument as to why banditing is illegal, many stick to their guns and claim it is. Fine. To each his own. BUT then, people endore an act that is certainly illegal as

"punishment" for banditing - an act that is not certain to be illegal.

So let me summarise. If you are against banditing because it is illegal, you cannot be for assaulting bandits - because that too is illegal.

Please do not point to certain illegal acts that "become" legal based on other's illegal actions (i.e. self defence), because the law has carved out very specific exceptions - almost all of which have to do with self-defence.

Ha-ha, tugged your chain I see. Friend, I read carefully thru your post and note you offered no arguments, pro or con about banditing races. Instead, you spent a couple minutes typing out an aimless reaction to something I said.

Point taken I may not have convinced YOU there are no convincing argments to bandit races. Fine.

It's stretching it some to call this topic debateable. Is it okay for you to sneak into a theater w/out paying for a ticket? Is it okay to steal? Is it okay for you to take advantage of the road/trail/track permit awarded to the race director? Why should everybody else that paid to race think your banditing is a good idea?

It is not okay to bandit races. I've faced off w/several acquaintances about this that 'race for free'. Those w/a conscience have mended their ways.

[quote]Asterix wrote:

Geeze, and if you think that is actually a valid arguement, you've got a lot of logic missing.

quote]

So what you are saying Asterix is that scotth and others owes letsrun.com $5.00 if he did in fact continue to read the message. I am going to be rich!

However, I do take issue with your analogy because the key difference is the private ownership of the plane. I do not believe that a road-race permit grants exclusive pedestrian use to only paying entrants. I think the permit simply allows for the closing of roads to vehicular traffic. In your situation, I think one's right to determine who uses your personal property is without question.

Can I just get a read on what people actually consider banditing and how we draw that line?

What if I am on my usual sunday 10 mile workout and I catch up to a group of runners in a 5km. Let us further assume that the 5km route is exactly part of my 10 mile run and that my 10 mile pace is the same as the mid pack pace for the 5km (let's assume that I was doing a pickup to catch the group and then I was doing a steady state as I ran with them - this was a pre-planned workout before I knew there was a race).

If I continue my usual run, following the exact race course with the racers, am I banditing?

I would say that is banditting. Regardless of what your plans are...there was an event already scheduled. Granted, you didn't know about it. You did, however, realize that it was going on and could have changed your course. You didn't and that's the same thing as someone else saying two weeks ahead of time, "I know there is a race, but I choose to do it anyway even though I haven't paid." Time and planing are immaterial...you can run a different route. The people who showed up for the race changed their training to run the race and I think it would be better to respect their choices than your plan.