RITZ 12:56 proof that lydiard style marathon base training is key

I agree with the spirit of this thread. Ritz's massive base and consistent training enabled this breakthrough track season. His 8:11 two-mile from 2007 translates anywhere from a 13:03-13:17, depending on what conversion calculator you use, but 3000-5000 seems to be his sweet spot, so one needs to consider that in the conversion. The alter-G treadmills, attention to detail with therapy, and altitude tent put him over the top.

For some reason, I always thought Ritz would run right around 13:03, but not faster and perhaps break 27:00, but certainly get the American record in any event. While Hudson should get some credit here, Salazar certainly seems to know how to hone talent. I wish Ritz could run another 10k this year. Strike while the iron's hot, because one never knows what's lurking around the corner.

You do not go anaerobic after 1.5 hours. Learn some biochemistry. You oxidize more fats at this point, but your anaerobic glycolysis is nonexistent.

Yes.

racetraining wrote:

It is NOT Endurance Work VS Speed Work.

It is Endurance Work AND Speed Work.

You need both, in the right amounts, and at the proper points in your training.

Endurance with no Speed and Speed with no Endurance are dead ends for improvement.

Exactly!!! That is STRENGTH!

The big base is what its all about. I'm glad to see that we (USA) have figured this out again. There are no shortcuts.

"Speed is what brought him the record. For years he did marathon training and had no breakout performances. So when he adds speed to the equation, that demonstrates that speed is key, not that the stuff that he had been doing all along is key"

I don't disagree totally with this statement, but it is the years of marathon training that allowed him to add the speed. Speed alone without the base will eventually kill you. Just look at Webb. Hopefully Dathan won't make the same mistake as Webb and underestimate his years of base training.

Nick Symonds mentioned he was tired in the final of the 800 and I can bet he doesn't run over 50 mpw. Peter Snell made it through 7 rounds 800/1500 to claim both victory's in tokyo. Lydiard said Snells Marathon conditioning helped him recover quicker from the rounds allowing the final to feel easy for him where all the other runners were tired in the finals.

Of course no one is saying Ritz followed Lyidards schedule to a T thats just nonsense but the general idea that big aerobic mileage followed by speed work is the key. But ritz conditioned for the Marathon for 3 years making him way stronger aerobically than before, Which has allowed him to better utilize his new speed work secessions. Ofcourse he needed the speed to run what he ran the other night, but without the Aerboic conditioning he wouldnt have been able to put it all together. Even lydiard said you can get a football player to run 10 quarters all out..... Thats not being fit.

Black and Gifted wrote:

Speed alone without the base will eventually kill you. Just look at Webb. Hopefully Dathan won't make the same mistake as Webb and underestimate his years of base training.

This is a very poor and misleading conclusion about Webb.

We should take a close look at the training of Aouita, Moorcroft, Kennedy, El G, Bekele, and a dozen of today's sub 13 runners, and then revisit the "proof" that is referred to in the title of this thread.

Nurtured wrote:

Nick Symonds mentioned he was tired in the final of the 800 and I can bet he doesn't run over 50 mpw.

Don't bet on that. Symmonds runs about 70 mpw per an interview at the USA Champs.

Just for fun, I went to marathonguide.com's race predictor and plugged in the 12:56. Here is what its predicting for all other events up through the marathon:

http://www.marathonguide.com/fitnesscalcs/predictcalc.cfm

What can Hall run for a 5k these days. He was just as fast as Ritz up until this year, he naturally is a better miler 4 flat in HS, and is far superior at the marathon distance. Still I think Webb has the most potential. That would be amazing to have all three of them in the same event on an olympic or world team. That high school class REALLY delivered, unlike most that usually flop two years into college. They all have American records ending in 6 lol

Skuj wrote:

We should take a close look at the training of Aouita, Moorcroft, Kennedy, El G, Bekele, and a dozen of today's sub 13 runners, and then revisit the "proof" that is referred to in the title of this thread.

From Haile G's twitter:

"Did a 3 hour run on altitude, about 3000m. Here I can not run on roads or paths, but just through wild nature"

yup, lots of speedwork there.

Why are you fools obsessed with Lydiard? His results are proven in the books at about a 3:54 Mile, 13:30 5000m, and 28:00 for 10K and a 2:16 Marathon.

Stop giving credit where credit is not due. Lydiard is not responsible for any of this.

nepoks wrote:

Lydiard is not responsible for any of this.

Wrong. Lydiard is reponsable for build up the idea that he is the responsable for every success in the distance run that does aerobic training volume.

Salazar instead of puts mileage on Ritz gets him on srenght endurance and interval training that is not Lydiard training at all.

Again, I think the OP hit the nail on the head. However, what's interesting about Salazar is that he appears to put a lot of emphasis on having lots of overall quality mileage. Instead of going from 100m/wk (15-25%quality) to 150m/wk (same number of quality miles) over a period of time, he appears to emphasize the steady increase of quality of those 100miles. As Ritz/Webb adjust to his training the way Rupp has for years, we should continue to see improvement over varying distances.

With that said, I'm still curious to why folks in his camp (himself included) have been taking and being prescribed medication for something without theh presence of verified medical symptoms.

lydiard usually criticizes the anaerobic approach to training in regards to middle-distances (as many of his big successes were MD guys like peter snell). what lydiard didn't realize is that the whole time he was advocating anaerobic intervals.

every run is an interval workout. whether its a 20 mile run (1x20 miles) or 200 meter repeats. lets face it arthur:

a long run in mountainous new zealand is an anaerobic interval workout, with the anaerobic sessions on the uphills, and active recovery on the downhills. i believe it was lydiard himself who said that hills are speedwork in disguise

the same can be said for lydiard fartleks. lydiard just didnt understand that you don't have to stop running between repeats for it to be an interval workout

so people who don't actually understand how to train interpret lydiards misunderstandings as a herald to the end of interval and anaerobic work as we know it

its 2009, lydiard belongs in history books, not training manuals.

read 'healthy, intelligent training', sort of a modern lydiard approach, but its as full of facepalm material as the original

scones wrote:

Spped is what brought him the record. For years he did marathon training and had no breakout performances. So when he adds speed to the equation, that demonstrates that speed is key, not that the stuff that he had been doing all along is key.

You're actually arguing that marathoning training does it. You said YEARS of marathon training, and a recent add of speed. Even Salazar on the front page said that Hudson's marathon training was the cake.

Lydiard is the MAN wrote:

This just adds more weight to the paper weight people. Regardless he wasn't just base training, but he was training for the Marathon. Lydiard says Marathon conditioning is key to reaching ones potential. How many years now has Ritz been doing this type of training? 3? 4? years and look at the results.

Lydiard always said Americans were to focused on the Icing part of the cake (anaerobic training). Looks like one American finally make the cake first (Maxing aerobic conditioning) then put the icing on after!

other than ritz who else has trained and race for the marathon and 10k for a few years then comeback and BUST A BIG ONE on the 5k track????

also malmo has been very quiet on this AR...

i'm all ears

no not at all. Yes the Lydiard style training improves you up to a point but studies have shown that you can go beyond this with higher intensity work. (see Frank Horwill) Ie - 5 x 1K with 60 secs rec. 7 x 800 with 30 sec rec(seb coe said this was the golden workout)

no