50 and Slowing - Masters / Seniors Input Please

50+ wrote:

gg wrote:

Anyone who is familiar with Tinman's posts knows of critical velocity pace; that pace between hard 5k effort and 10k pace where you get the benefit of speed training without straining.

Incorrect.

Quote from Tinman´s site: "An all-out run covering 35 to 45 minutes determines your CV pace".

That is 10k pace or slightly slower depending on how fast you are.

I think we are saying essentially the same thing; slightly slower than 10k pace is somewhere between five K and 10k pace.

A runner who completes a 10k in just under 40 minutes would be running 6:20 something and could likely run in th midway between 18 and 19 minutes for the 5k.

That runner could do 400 and 800 repeats on the track in training for those 2 distances but he might get most of what he needs for speed by running repeats in the 6:10-6:15 pace range. That seems to be the broad meaning of the Tinman principle.

I've found the idea to be valid and I like the decreased risk of injury.

I will be 70 in a little over a year AND AM PLANNING A Super Senior thread .ONE condition , you must have your parents permission . satch joke

This is an update and correction to my posting a few days ago. I have since found that increasing my cadence is very easy to do, and that stride frequency is not an issue at all. The major difference from 20 years ago is stride length. This is a great finding for me to see. This morning I ran on the treadmill as a test, and kept lowering the cadence so my stride would be longer, then sped up the pace while keeping the low rate.

I was surprised afterwards that my stride was not anywhere as long as expected. My stride length on the sprints is quite a bit closer to what it was 20 years ago, but still significantly less. Stride length comes from flexibility, leg strength, and oxygen use, as pointed out by Jack Farrell in his articles.

My plan is to work on the stride length daily in my steady runs, and to continue the sprints once a week as a test and for speed, running the sprints with as full of a stride as possible, keeping good form, and keeping the frequency at a minimum.

It seems there's some interest in a weekly 50's thread. Let's give it a shot for awhile and see how it works out. Unless someone else wants to I'll start one this Monday and a new one each week, likely on Mondays. I encourage others, if they're over 50 or closing in on 50, to participate also. All inclusive. Thanks for the feedback!

bump

Further on up the road wrote:

Has anyone found that adding consistent core strengthening work has significantly helped their running?

I'm a sprinter so I don't think I do the type of running most posters are looking for, but I'm 49 and I had my fastest masters year ever this past season. I ran a 100 yard dash and it was only 3 tenths off my high school PR (but I wasn't that great of a HS sprinter).

I do a lot of core work. It helps maintain your form. Your torse is strong and erect, you can hold yourself straight and maximize your chest capacity for your lung expansion, and your lower back and hips don't hurt. I am also very big on flexibility. I thoroughly stretch my hams, glutes, flexors, quads, and calves every day.

cgray my 47 year old wife did PPA this year. At age 45 she was only 2 minutes off her winning time at age 37. This year she was 6 minutes slower than 37. But in those early years running was IT! Now we ski/snowboard 5 months out of the year. It seems to me that uphill/altitude races where patience and old age wisdom can really pay off. So do the Ascent again.

I'm mid 50's and don't stretch. I have started before, done it for a few weeks but always lose interest. I try to start slow and finish slow during training runs. I do some lifting and try to fully extend like a stretch but just don't stretch.

Anyone else like that?

Approaching 40 years serious running here - over 100,000 miles in the legs and pbs of sub 15/31 in my late 20s/ early 30s. Still running daily, about 40-45 miles a week. I,m now finding I run better when every day is about the same distance and, apart from a weekly 5k, none of them too hard. A typical day would be - 10 minutes stretch, 6 miles light fartlek and 10 mins stretch, an abdominal exercise and an upper body exercise. Like most of you, times are seriously slowing now but this began at 50 rather than 45 when I was still fairly competitive. The weekly 5k is my principal motivation now so, although I realise its not the best way to improve my times, it's a good social occasion as my other runs are all solo.

Turning 66 in a few days. Put cigs down in 1975. Sarted logging miles 4/76. Currently at 69,7xx miles. Actually, I have increased my running over the last several years. I am on target to run more miles this yr than I have since the early 80's (2600+ miles.) The miles are much slower, But I truly appreciate each one. Stopped marathons in the mid 80's. Got into ultras and gave them up in the mid 90's. In '08 ran a BQ 3:57 several months before my 65th b'day.

I have always trained 2-3 minutes off race pace. Ran a 5K this AM--74 here in Florida and ran a 22:54. No running faster than 9 m/m--actually closer to 10 m/m in ALL of my "training". My PR's came 10 yra after I started running. 5K 17xx, 10K 36xx. Marathon a 3:16. 50 miler 8:12.

I honestly believe I am still at it because of decent genes/size:5'10 140-150 lbs and running 95%+ of my miles very EZ. Thanks for letting me share. Oh, retiring has given me more time to run. I need it. Course that use to take me an hour now tak 1 1/2 hrs +. Remember: There is no finish line. Nick

I'm dithering with my schedule within this aging issue and still planning to run a marathon in Nov. or Dec.

I used to build my long runs to include 2 or 3, three hour runs before the marathon.

I'm interested to know how others are managing marathon training, specifically how slowly they build the length of the long runs, how often they do long runs and whether any portion of the long runs are at faster than easy pace.

I'm still hoping to finish right around three hours.

gg wrote:

I'm dithering with my schedule within this aging issue and still planning to run a marathon in Nov. or Dec.

I used to build my long runs to include 2 or 3, three hour runs before the marathon.

I'm interested to know how others are managing marathon training, specifically how slowly they build the length of the long runs, how often they do long runs and whether any portion of the long runs are at faster than easy pace.

I'm still hoping to finish right around three hours.

After 6 marathons I changed things up a bit this time. I'm focusing on doing some of my long runs faster than in the past. And when I do the faster ones I'm doing them in 7 mile progressions ie the first seven slowest but still a bit quicker than easy pace, then faster the next 7 and then as close to marathon goal pace as I can the last 7. In the past I'd go out quicker and get slower towards the end. I also have already done more 20+ milers this time and did build up slowly. Last years marathon was kind of an afterthought and only had 3-4 months of increased mileage after training primarily for the mile. This year I started much earlier and did gradually increase the mileage and long runs. Less hard stuff this year. I'll know in Oct if it works out.

yep

Can someone post me some 5k winter training?

well, i certainly understand the slowing with age thing, but i have recently made some improvements/discoveries and would like to share what i have found with anyone interested.

Background: I;ve ran since i was 10, am now 46. Low milage in high school 20+/week, more in college 70-90, best racing came 2 yrs out of college on 30-45 miles per week where i only ran 4 times per week doing everything fresh and fast...struggled many years after that with shoe problems. Finally decided to run in racing flats and it has been all uphill since.

I feel if you want to get faster/improve at an advanced age you have to try some different things BUT you can't expect changes overnight and you have to gradually change.

after running 30 miles per week for many years - and even running well once i turned 40 (25:48 8k), I plateued mainly because i was racing workouts.

a few years ago i started over in a way: went back to slow longer miles...did that for a good 2-3 years and starting getting stronger, but no speed.

more recently I have been doing some track workouts etc. By doing the long, slow boring stuff, I have found that my volume is better than ever and the faster paced running is coming around. Surprisingly 1) I can do workouts i could not do when i was younger and 2) i pretty much don't do recovery days in the traditional sense (I am either going long, hard or steady in training). i don't advise this for others, but my point is it works for me because i was willing to experiment with it and give it a try.

For example (this past week):

Thur - 7 X 1 mile (where i run the first 800 with the wind and downhill for speed in around 2:24 and try to hold a recovery type effort back up the hill and into the wind in around 3:00) for a 5:20-5:25 mile...then i take only :40 rest and go again. First one was much slower (warmup) When i first did this workout in May i could only do 3 of these.

Wed - 9 X 300 (ran :50-:51 with a 100 jog recovery in about :35-:40 seconds) this workout hurts but goes by fast. Started out only doing 4 (usually i do 400's but it was too windy)

Tues - ran 16 around 7:00 pace

Mon - 6 X 400 (:69-:70 on :28-:35 seconds jog)

Sun - ran 18 around 7:00 pace

Sat - 6 X 1 mile (another hot windy day - where i go the 800 fast downhill and 800 recover uphill thing)

Fri - ran 20 around 7:00 pace

Thur - 13 mile steady state (first 4 miles slowish 6:15 pace then around 5:35 the rest of the way till the last mile where i pushed it)

I guess part of what is working is i am not trying to run fast necessarily (so to compensate i cut the rest way down) I still have to relearn the whole stay within myself thing (to run the right effort) every few months. I think that may be the biggest thing. To run as we age we have to have a bad memory and forget what we used to be able to do...and we have to not believe that we are getting slower...and not be afraid to push outside the box of our traditional thinking/way of training. I mean i cannot believe that i can do all these workouts back-to-back-to-back but i have built up to it...it didn't happen overnight. i for one am fighting the aging process every step of the way and refuse to accept the limits others want to push on us.

basically i break all the traditional rules and love it:

1) i do all my running in racing shoes

2) i do more than 1 long run a week

3) i do fast workouts back-to-back days

there are other master's guys do some amazing things: Paul Afedemberg, Pete Magill, Christian Cushing-Murray...and while i am not at their level (yet), I think they would tell you much the same thing. Train smarter not harder.

Mike Hagar (age 60) UK guy just ran 33:40 for 10K road race this last weekend, so its still possible to get those legs turning over pretty quick in your later years

stav wrote:

Mike Hagar (age 60) UK guy just ran 33:40 for 10K road race this last weekend, so its still possible to get those legs turning over pretty quick in your later years

Do you know if this was a certified course? If so, I believe it would be a world record for a 60-year old.

Mike's an old buddy of mine - good to see him still running strong!

Dave

helps if you never were too good.