Regarding Viren and blood doping

I (like eveyne else here) do not know if Viren in fact used blood doping. But I dont think Shorter ever knocked him. In fact, while I don't have the book in front of me, from memory I believe that in his 1984 book "Olympic Gold: A Runner’s Life and Times" Shorter said that shortly after the Olympics Viren visited him, they ran some together, and Shorter said he believed Viren was the real deal and not a doper.

In addition, it is not "proof" of inappropriate activity that Finland out of nowhere had a "golden period" in the 70s that then faded. That is a not uncommon phenomenon. Looks at New Zealand in the early 60s with Halberg, Magee and Snell, and again in the mid-70s with Walker, Dixon and Quax, and the UK in the 80s with Coe, Ovett and Cram. It can be a confluence of talent and other factors coming together and playing off each other.

Viren didn´t need doping (legal or illegal) to run pb´s of 7.43, 13.16 and 27.38. He was a phenomenal talent, running 13.55 when was 20years old with little training.

1973 was sub par because of lack of motivation (no big enough races) and training peace, -74 he ran a lot and trained hard but foot injury prevented the speedwork before european championships (was 3rd in ~13.25) and that injury forced him to go through big surgery and rehabilitation period which was the reason why -75 went by without real races. When he was back running, he was so eager that nothing couldn´t stop him.

Rumours are rumours, this is the truth. Try to live with that.

american whiners wrote:

Who gives a shit.

He ran the races and he won them.

Frank Shorter's dad was a doctor, and Frank went to medical school. He even talks in his book about "red lines going down" his legs from his various doping experiments.

Shop whining and complaining and go run.

You've apparently mistaken me for someone who was whining. I just asked if I was correct about Maaninka admitting to blood doping without any sense of judgement.

I would make two points:

1) It seems that we don't really know if he was blood-doping, and we do know he was very talented.

2) We should not judge 1970's athletes by today's standards and mentality but by 1970's standards and mentality. Blood doping, in the 1970's, was not widely considered as cheating, was it?

BTW, I think blood-doping was banned before an effective test existed.

Voice of Ray-san wrote:

BTW, I think blood-doping was banned before an effective test existed.

You are right, banned a long time before a test was developed.

There is still no test for autologous blood doping.

z runner wrote:

I dont think Shorter ever knocked him.

Yeah, I don't think so either. I think Shorter's major beef, and he is right, is with Cierpinski, who has basically been proved to be a doper and the iaaf won't even look at it.

All Viren says is "I did nothing wrong." If he didn't blood dope, he would say "I didn't blood dope." Renato is right; Viren probably blood-doped, Viren doesn't consider it wrong, Renato doesn't think it was wrong and we shouldn't either (for the era, considering the rules, state of scientific knowledge of performance, etc.).

I think it's safe to say that if blood doping were legal today, Salazar and his group would using it. The Finns were just doing everything they could up to the limit of legality to win, and Salazar has repeatedly stated that's what his group does (altitude houses, prescribed asthma/thyroid medication, breathe right strips).

The slope is too slippery!

Did you serious just cite breathe-rite strips as a possible performance enhancer?

"what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul"

South Eugene Runner wrote:

Shorter's major beef, and he is right, is with Cierpinski, who has basically been proved to be a doper and the iaaf won't even look at it.

Because the proof is Shorter saying he personally found German documents saying that Cierpinski, which is a bunch of hogwash and sour grapes.

I doubt that Viren ever visited with Frank Shorter. Who in their right mind ever would?

Dick Quax did visit with Viren in Finland.

Voice of Ray-san wrote:

2) We should not judge 1970's athletes by today's standards and mentality but by 1970's standards and mentality. Blood doping, in the 1970's, was not widely considered as cheating, was it?

I think it was looked upon as unethical at the time but it wasn't outlawed so it wasn't cheating.

Nutella wrote:

What makes you assume that black people can do it without doping?

I guess the fact that zero east-Africans have been caught or have stepped foward and said they have doped. I have never heard a story about a Kenyan needing a hospital visit between heats. The same cannot be said for the Finnish or Spanish athletes. Also, fast African performances have been consistant and plentiful since they arrived on the scene. Not all clumped together in one decade and then nothing.

Franque Soda wrote:

Voice of Ray-san wrote:

2) We should not judge 1970's athletes by today's standards and mentality but by 1970's standards and mentality. Blood doping, in the 1970's, was not widely considered as cheating, was it?

I think it was looked upon as unethical at the time but it wasn't outlawed so it wasn't cheating.

It WAS unethical, which is why Viren has always skirted the subject when asked a direct question.

When has he ever said I DID NOT BLOOD DOPE.

I dispute that he would have won 4 gold medals without blood-doping & high altitude training.

The high altitude training and the blood-doping were inextricably linked.

silly old fossil wrote:

I dispute that he would have won 4 gold medals without blood-doping & high altitude training.

Because you only run broke 8 minutes for a mile when you doped.

I think from the history and discussion it is clear that Viren and the other Finns cheated.

Just because something is not banned, or testable, doesn't mean it does not violate the spirit of fairness and sportsmanship.

Real "Steroids," per Canova's suggestion could not be bought in the supermarket in 1974 in Southern California. I know for a fact that many many Southern California athletes of the day went to TIJUANA to buy their little blue pills. How do I know? I used to know one of the guys who made the trips. And, this was before steroids were illegal. Creatin; I'd like to see proof that this was isolated and in supplements in 1974. I don't even know if there were chains, i.e. non-independent vitamin and suplement stores back then

I know that all of those guys that I knew were getting and using steroids knew they were cheating and considered it as such and didn't care because they knew Eaastern Block and others were doing it and it was their only chance at success in an even playing field.

So, it is not one thing to know what you are doing is wrong, and because it is not yet illegal, not think it cheating.

The guys I knew who were using steroids back then all thought it was great that they were getting an advantage on others not "in the know." And even before 'roids were made illegal, the whole use of them was underground... Just as blood doping, blood changing was, if that isn't a sign of knowing you are doing something not on the up and up...

The history of athletes trying to gain unfair advantages with substances that are legal, doesn't erase the idea that they are tying to gain an unfair advantage on the comp.

So, I agree with those that hold the idea of fairness and clean competition, and the Olympic ideals above these historical situations where the system/s just had not caught up with the cheaters yet.

And finally, anyone who knows National sports from back in the day, knows that a small country like Finnland had their elite athletes in a much closer knit community than the USA ever did or could.

It is not the same to say that since several of the Finns core stars were caught, it is likely that they all were... and that since some American sprinters were caught, that all American sprinters were dirty as well.

I do believe that more American sprinters were dirty than were caught -- but I also know that the Americans were too un organized to have had a mass of sprinters on the same regimes.

For instance, at the time, the Finns took team trips for altitude training.

In that era, Colorado Springs aside (which was mostly for the younger athletes) it would have been real hard to get everyone on the same page for a drug program.

Viren always uses semantics, and never has directly denied blood doping or changing.

Legal or not at the time; an attempt to gain unfair advantage, ergo cheating.

And if Canova doesn't think that thinking my blood is better than the others didn't hold some form of psychological advantage...

I think Viren and his countrymen who were later caught, or admitted it, were cheating.

And it is sad, because I also think without it Viren would have been one of the best in the world -- the races just would have been closer and more realistic, or at least honest.

Viren in my mind is a liar and a cheat, all the more sad because he was talented.

I don't care about judging things by the era.

I'd agree with Shorter if he had made an effort for Cirpinsky(sp) to have his medals stripped after the fact. No doubt he was doping, when it was still legal.

In the end all of this points to a sport where individual success is so desired that so many have tried so many ways to use substances to gain an unfair and unethical advantage.

And that is the final litmus test to me; does anyone here really think that the Finns would have felt as confident if they had known that everyone else knew what they knew, and new how to do what they were doing?

They were not exactly handing out mimeographed sets of instructions to other countries, teaching all the athletes to do it.

Viren and the Finns were dirty and cheated; the US sprinters who were caught cheated, and the athletes who admitted after the fact that they did things that were legal that became illegal, they cheated too.

Clean sport is clean sport, whether the unclean part wasn't declared till later, no matter.

Either you intend to compete without unnatural enhancements or you don't.

--I really like the point made about the Africans... They have never been caught enmasse using anything.

Viren: dirty dirty dirty.

I know nothing wrote:

I guess the fact that zero east-Africans have been caught or have stepped foward and said they have doped.

What do you expect? Do you think the WADA or IAAF or whomever sends some of their Doping testers out to Kenya to the highlands? In my opinion that's simialr as with Jamaica for Sprinters. You can work without being bothered.

Raised Eyebrow wrote:

Just because something is not banned, or testable, doesn't mean it does not violate the spirit of fairness and sportsmanship.

Clean sport is clean sport, whether the unclean part wasn't declared till later, no matter.

Either you intend to compete without unnatural enhancements or you don't.

--I really like the point made about the Africans... They have never been caught enmasse using anything.

Viren: dirty dirty dirty.

So........ do you consider all that have used altitude tents/rooms as cheaters too? I mean, breathing in manufactured air in order to force the body to produce more EPO, and then wake up and train at sea level is HARDLY a "natural" enhancement. That would eliminate a lot of the best western athletes ever. So Paula is "dirty, dirty, dirty" ? The Gouchers & Rupp too? Of course I could go on and on since so many have used them.

Is Paula different than Viren? I say no. Both pushed the envelope of what is natural or ethical, but neither cheated. (on the other hand, I don't think there is that big of a jump from Blood transfusions and altitude tents to EPO. Life ain't black and white, that's for sure, despite your apparent certainties to the contrary).

I didn't know blood doping existed in the 70s

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Did you serious just cite breathe-rite strips as a possible performance enhancer?

Yes, I did. Just think about it - wider nostrils allows a greater flux of oxygen into the bloodstream which leads to faster times. Plus, they're unnatural as hell. Do you think poor Kalenjin youth have access to breathe rights on their twice-daily 10 milers?

And haven't you seen the physiological data on them?

Sir...

First there is a difference between attaching a device to breath through - and HAVING YOUR BLOOD REMOVED, FROZEN, AND THEN REINJECTED INTO YOU MONTHS OR YEARS LATER.

One is passive, makes you strain, saves you the cost of living at high altitude. Natural and clean.

Synthetic high altitude training. Seems fair.

The other is INVASIVE and adding extra blood volume to the body.