What Feat Was More Impressive: Ryan's 3:33 running 2:46 or Keino 1500 at Mexico City?

Ok, lets say Ryun's 3:33.1 is worth 2.5 seconds faster due to uneven pace, giving him 3:30.6.

His splits were: 60.5, 55.9, 57.6 & 39.1 . That gives a differential of 4.6 between his fastest & slowest laps in the first 3.

Coe ran a solo 3:31.95 in '81 after running laps of: 52.4, 56.7, 59.2 & 43.6.

The difference between his slowest & fastest was 6.8.

6.8/4.6 = 1.48. So 2.5 sec x 1.48 = 3.7 (to 1 dp).

So based on your allowance for uneven pacing, Coe's run was worth 3:28.25.

Lets then knock another second off for the fact he ran in isolation for the first 800m (Robinson going through in 51.5 & 1:47.4!!) and then ran the last 700m solo (30-40m ahead of rest of field) with no lap times given.

taking difference between fastest & slowest lap is too simplistic - it ignores observation if an ignored lap may have been just slightly faster than slowest lap or been just slightly slower than fastest lap

ratio of fastest 800/ slowest 700 or juxtaposed, for each athlete includes all the data & woud be better

Keino's gold medal performance in the 1500 in Mexico at altitude, after running the 5000 and the 10000, and being ill, was superhuman and one of the great Olympic performances of all time. But at the same time, if Ryun had been totally healthy himself (post mono) and if the race had been at sea level, Ryun would have beaten Keino in the 1500, just as he had dominated Keino in their matches leading up to Mexico (at fast pace, at slow pace, did not matter). Ryun was just too talented at that distance, and driven.

Yes I agree!

I don't understand why i people say Keino is a good altitude runner hence that time is reflective of his ability, then in the next breath speculate what Ryun would have run. Maybe Ryun was just good off negative splits?

people tend to forget keino broke both the 3k & 5k WRs in '65/'66 at sea-level

that shoud beenough proof of his sea-level ability !

z runner wrote:

if Ryun had been totally healthy himself (post mono)....

I'm not sure Ryun was ever "totally healthy" post mono, since his performances were often erratic for the rest of his career. It started in the 1968 Olympic Trials, when he dropped out of the 800 meter final in the last lap. The guy was the world record holder at that distance, for chrissakes.

He had some impressive races in 1971 and 1972, but he also ran a lot of 4:10s in major races, including at the Crystal Palace in London in 1971, where he finished last behind Dave Bedford.

Speaking of "wahbits," no one has pointed out that Keino had a top-notch rabbit in Mexico City--Ben Jipcho, who would later be ranked number one in the world in the 1500 (1973)and the 5000 (1974).

As has been pointed out, Keino's time might not have been affected by the altitude for a distance as short as 1500 meters. For a Kenyan, the altitude might become a factor at a slightly longer distance. Ralph Doubell of Australia won the 800 in 1:44, so the weaker gravity might have offset the thinner oxygen for a guy who is from sea level. Maybe the same thing happened for Keino at the 1,500 meters. Plus, he had a rabbit. So without the 5,000 and the 10,000, maybe he would have run 3:33 or 3:32. Ryun's 3:33 is the more impressive. And I think Ryun in 1966-1967 would have beaten Keino in 1968 at sea level.

By the way, does anyone recall that Pekka Vasala beat Keino in Helsinki at the World Games at 1500 meters in 1971? In other words, in the year BEFORE Munich? Vasala ran 3:38.6.

A photo is worth a thousand words.

I wonder what was going through Keino's head when Vasala was on his shoulder over the last 200 meters in Munich. Deja vu?

I think that photo was at the finish. He wouldn't have had that big of a lead at the bell.

But the original question, which was more impressive, is hard to answer.

Nobody ever ran that fast at altitude, but was Keino affected as much as everyone else? It was thought that 3:39 would win, but were the effects of altitude at 1,500 really understood? Maybe it was partly psychological. Obviously 5 and 10,000 races were far slower than they would have been, but the 800 was won in world record time. Maybe the 1,500 wasn't so different.

I think basically the IOC ruined the Olympics for distance running in 1968 by having them in Mexico.

japke wrote:

I don't understand why i people say Keino is a good altitude runner hence that time is reflective of his ability, then in the next breath speculate what Ryun would have run. Maybe Ryun was just good off negative splits?

That is exactly the case. Ryun did attempt to run even pace a few times, and he crashed and burned every time. The slow start races were ideal for him, and a set up for his kick.

He was not capable of running any faster than he did.

Had the '68 Olympics been at sea level, and with the same tactics that were used, Kip Keino would have won by a similar margin as he did at Mexico City, except the time would have been somewhat faster.

Ekpaj wrote:

Sounds like something Squires would write.

Why are you afraid to use your real name instead of hiding? I'm not.

As for the original question, I think I'd go with Ryun's 3:33.1. Trying to guess how many seconds various altitudes slow different runners isn't quite like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin but probably just as pointless. The altitude did affect Keino, though certainly less than the lowlanders, but the Mexico City track was the fastest yet constructed as of 1968 and he had a rabbit. I figure all of those things more or less evened each other out.

Keino was a better miler than Ryun for a grand total of one day in the 1966-1968 time period, but it was the right day to pick.

J.R. wrote:

Ryun did attempt to run even pace a few times, and he crashed and burned every time.

Can you give some examples?

J.R. wrote:

That is exactly the case. Ryun did attempt to run even pace a few times, and he crashed and burned every time. The slow start races were ideal for him, and a set up for his kick.

He was not capable of running any faster than he did.

Had the '68 Olympics been at sea level, and with the same tactics that were used, Kip Keino would have won by a similar margin as he did at Mexico City, except the time would have been somewhat faster.

Assuming you are who I think you are, then considering the fact that many people here know who are you, why do you refer to him as "Ryun"? I guess I can see where you're coming from, but it strikes me as odd.

J.R. wrote:

Had the '68 Olympics been at sea level, and with the same tactics that were used, Kip Keino would have won by a similar margin as he did at Mexico City, except the time would have been somewhat faster.

Jim Ryuns first all out timed mile when he first arrived at Mexico city was something like 4:30, and it felt all out. The fact that he got the silver was hugely impressive, and considering Ryun routinely crushed Keino at sea level, your comments just make you look silly (AS THEY ALWAYS DO, I HAVE NOT SEEN ONE NON-REDICULOUS POST FROM YOU YET)

Every one of Ryuns great runs have an * next to them, because he:

started slow

big last lap

didn't hear the split

was 17

was 19

etc

etc

Just like Keino was good running in the rare air, Ryun was good at running BIG negative splits. Others have run some spectacular splits as mentioned by others, it doesn't get credited onto your time at the end.

J.R. - is right, if the final had been run the same way, at sea level Keino would have won too. He was just in sublime form. Jipcho and Keino should be given much more credit for working out a strategy to ruin the worlds greatest miler, they obvioulsy knew Ryun did not like to start fast and played to that weakness.

I can't beleive how dismissive people are of the fact Keino ran, and correct me if I'm wrong here, 10,000m final 5,000m Heat, 5,000m final,1500m heat... already that week!?!?!?!

With appendicitis / gall bladder infection

If Keino was in such ‘sublime form’ at those Games - how come he got out-kicked on the last lap of the 5000 by Mohamed Gammoudi?

i believe he ran that 5k whilst still recovering from the gallbladder problem

Careful about Ryun's singularity. I am reposting a 15 year old post by the great Keiron Bailey (statsman extraordinaire in his day). Check out his mention of Aouita's last 300 in Grosseto in 1984.

---------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Mar 94 18:14:26 CST

From: Keiron D Bailey

Subject: Re: Vaatainen / fast kicks

On Wed, 30 Mar 1994, Dr. Lesley wrote:

> It is also interesting to compare kicks at the end of various distances.

> A 53 at the end of an 800 is very good indeed.

Yes-but that depends on the speed of the first 400! For instance, in 1958 at the Empire Games in Cardiff Herb Elliott ran a 50 sec last 440y: off a first lap of 58!

Sebastian Coe's second lap at the 1986 European Champs was a really impressive run. Despite his terrible tactical positioning (he was knocked out of the pack round the turn at 500 and was a couple of meters back on the second last guy, on the border between lanes 2 and 3) he produced a second lap of 51.9 (off a first of 52.6) for a 1:44.50.

> I don't think Wottle finished that fast. Yet some 5000s

> are finished in that range. The most striking

> case I ever saw was in Helsinki '83. The last 300 of the > 1500 was about 39 seconds, as was the last 300 of the

> 10000, which was run near 28 minutes. I think that the

> 1500 was run slower than 3 40. Miruts Yifter's last 200's

> were consistently faster than those of the contemporary

> 800 meter runners. There must be something about that 51 second start.....

Yes. You can't "kick" off a fast 800meter pace. As far as other fast finishes go, here are some more middle-distance performances to add to the ones that have already been contributed....

At 800

Sebastian Coe Ecup79 200 in 24.1 for 1:46.3

Tom McKean, Nixon Kiprotich and Jens-Peter Herold in the 1989 World Cup

200 in 24.9 for 1:44.94/1:45.03/1:45.09

At 1500

Said Aouita Grosseto 84 300 in 36 for 3:34.81

Sebastian Coe OG 84 400 in 53.0 for 3:32.53

Steve Cram and Jose-Luis Gonzalez in the 1987 European Cup

400 in 49.9 for 3:45.5

Abdi Bile, Sebastian Coe and Jens-Peter Herold in the 1989 World Cup

300 in 37.7/37.8 for 3:35.57/3:35.7

Nourredine Morceli WC91 400 in 51.4 for 3:32.85

Nourredine Morceli WC93 400 in 50.6 for 3:34.23

At 5000

Said Aouita Oslo 85 400 in 53.9 for 13:00.40WR (pursued by Maree)

Said Aouita WC 87 400 in 52.8 for 13:26.3

Dieter Baumann OG 92 200 in 24.9 for a 13:12.5.

[my addition ]

{

Nourredin Morceli Zurich 17.8.94

400 in 51.93 for 13:03.xx

one of best 5000m fields ever!

}

At 10000

Juha Vaatainen EC 71 400 in 52.8 for 27:51? (not sure about the total)

Fita Bayesa Oslo 92 400 in 53.9 for 27:15 (Chelimo 54.8 same race)

Keiron

J.R. wrote:

Ryun did attempt to run even pace a few times, and he crashed and burned every time.

Maybe he should have trained a little differently. Hmmm.

So, to sum up:

White guy soundly defeated by East Africans = genetics

White guy soundly defeats East African = poor training by white guy

Tergat says it's all in our heads = mocked by LRC