IU not going to Nationals :(

There is a main connection to Indiana in the Stanford athletic offices. I don't need to say much more as I don't want Robert calling me about it.

As far as the current student athletes, I doubt that letsrun chatter changes their world.

helmer is 60+ years old. not sure how many "rebuilding years" he has left. not sure i would even call it a rebuilding period. he was given a pretty talented group of runners.

Here's my take:

Chapman is a great scientist who trains his guys well. He has been a leading voice in the coaching community on Altitude Training Theory as well as Threshold Training. Numerous top HS coaches (most notably Paul Vandersteen, coach of Neuqua Valley - last years Nike XC Nationals Champs) have benefited from his clinic presentations at HS Coaching Clinics.

He does a great job with the post-collegiate group. He did a great job with Haas and the Jeffersons as well as some of the "nobodies" like Chris Powers (13:59 was his pr - i believe) and Tom Burns (~8:40ish Steeple).

The problem many people had with Chapman was that there was little institutional pride. He was also not perceived to be the greatest recruiter / communicator. To be fair - it seemed that he was beginning to move things in the right direction almost 2 years ago when he recruited a great class - Hubers (4:04/8:50) from Georgia + all the top Indiana talent - Turner (4:08/1:52/9:01 - State XC Champ), Hardacre (9:02), Poore (9:06), Weatherford (4:08), and Rich (4:16/9:21).

But in the years prior to this, there was a growing concern among Indiana HS Coaches - that the general direction of the program was wrong. It seemed that Chapman's approach was to develop individuals for the long-run (an admirable approach though perhaps not for this setting) - without much of a concern for how they performed as a team representing IU in the present.

For all the individual success that IU enjoyed - there was no real "tradition" to speak of. If there was a consistent tradition - it seemed to be that the top guys got really fit and ran fast times on the track early but often failed to compete well at Big Ten's and Nationals. If you look back at the record of the Jeffersons and Haas you will find that at Nationals - they rarely lived up to their seeding going in (Jefferson's one indoor mile title the obvious exception).

Perhaps most alarming for many Hoosier HS Coaches was the alarming frequency in which IU kids dropped out of races that weren't going well. As I wrote above - it really seemed like there was no clear team identity or tradition being established at IU under Chapman.

With Helmer - the Administration obviously saw a chance to bring in a guy who had been a part of programs who had developed a great tradition (both at Georgetown and at the HS level - Oakton? someplace in VA). He came and spoke to our Indiana HS Coaches' Clinic and made it clear that his intention was to get the program to the top-tier in the Big Ten as well as nationally. BTW Helmer also has more experience overseeing an entire Track and Field Team - something they brought him in to do.

It's a shame that the last couple of races did not indicate IU's true potential. Is Helmer to blame for this? To a certain degree he, like all coaches, bears responsibility for getting his guys ready to perform on the day. It seems that the current group of guys are on board with his vision for the program. It is unfortunate that something could not be worked out to keep Kyle and Fruin in the fold.

Regarding Helmer's Training - I can only assume that hard 200s were not a huge part of IU's preparation this past August. They might have been doing some light 200s to keep the NM system working once a week or so - but Helmer's system is heavily based on Aerobic Development balanced with developing the NM system to handle it.

I think it was mentioned that during chapmans tenure IU had the 2nd best average placing in the Big Ten cross country meet. Also, every IU indoor distance record 800-5k and DMR were set by chapman coached athletes plus the 10k and steeple outdoors. The other records are held by such average runners as spivey and kennedy. There are a total of 5 seniors per year that have a shot to score in the big ten track meet in distance events at most, and most of these guys need long term development to get to the point of competing with michigan and wisconsin studs. Sorry HS coaches if your athlete who finished 23rd at state in cross or 15th in the 3200 didnt get called by IU, but why the hell would you recruit a kid who has no chance of ever scoring in the big ten?? If he wants to come to IU and walk on and work hard then fine...Jordan Kyle did it, but why should a coach who wants to finish top 10 in the nation recruit a kid who wisconsin wouldnt let buy their shirt at steve and barrys.

It is Helmer's 2nd year at IU working with a group of guys that are mainly 19 and 20 year olds. Most of these runners ran their first 10k last weekend at Regionals on an incredibly muddy, therefore tough, course. I think that if we wait to see what happens in track this year it will be a better indicator of where the program is heading. This group of kids in incredibly talented and hold tremendous potential for seasons to come. Every dog has his day, and that race was nothing short of a failure to the ultimate goal of making the national meet, but don't forget about the age and little experience level of most of these athletes. Look at who they lose next year and you will see that they lose 2 great runners that contributed heavily to the team, but also notice who they keep, the kids who are now inexperienced and growing and learning and maturing in the sport in their 1st or 2nd year in college. I think the quick judgments are those Chapman loving Neanderthals who still can't over the fact that he is gone. He brought in this great group of guys then had to split, and that is NOT Helmer's fault. There have been just as many people in Chapman's program complaining as their are now complaining about Helmer's. I think Ron Helmer is a great guy and that given the chance, and he is there right now, he will show the Big Ten the kinds of athletes he plans to sick on them and then he'll be able to move up with athletes competing in the national meet time and time again.

Chapman did not average 2nd at Big 10's; never won so impossible. They were no better than OSU, Minnesoata, and Michigan in the conference.

The Jeffersons were the most hot/cold collegians ever, but not sure Chapman is to blame (they still are and don't seem too tough).

What people should look at is how back their track team is. At a place like IU, if you're not making Nationals in XC, you better be near the top in track! Unfortunately, I have a feeling IU has a ton of scholarship money in the distance area!

The reality is that IU has historically had great individuals (Spivey, Kennedy, Brahm, etc.), but no truly great teams. IU typically recruits Midwest, but doesn't often attact runners outside of the region. The traditional powers--Stanford, Oregon, Wisco, etc.--attract runners from all over the US. IU is never going to be the distance power it supposes itself to be. Not sure why, it's a great town with great facilities and excellent topography.

Anybody notice that the IU women's team went from 17th at last year's regionals to 5th this year? I'd say that's progress.

Quite saying your inexperienced and just go out and train and race well. IU runners have more excuses than anyone. Ron Helmer once said "If you are on a full ride you should be making nationals your freshman year and if you are on a partial scholarship you should be scoring at Big Tens your freshman year". You guys are failing even by your coaches standards. Get off the message boards, quite complaining about the lack of respect you get and go out and train hard and race well. Once you figure that out, it wont matter who your coach is because you will be good.

They graduate their top 2 runners, so they aren't THAT young. The teams that beat them:

Wisco: graduate 3

Michigan: graduate 2

Butler: graduate 2

ND: graduate 2

so they have a ways to go to catch any of these teams

Yes, quite complaining.

Why do you think they are Indiana athletes? I think people are just tired of idiots with an agenda to try to ruin a coach or a team. Getting old you Chapman fans. I like Chapman too but you guys are ridiculous. Give it a rest and let Helmer coach. Your guy is gone.

This is not about Chapman vs Helmer. THis is about the current runners being douche bags and hating anyone who has run for Indiana University in the past. Alteast you guys are building your own legacy of mediocracy.

Please do not write "your an idiot". Just sounds bad.

Also mediocracy is making your points of idiocy not look good.

yeah they looked amazing at regionals. pease had the race of her life as did the rest of their top 5. they really pulled it together at the right time, just a shame it was just shy of earning them a national berth.

gfugh wrote:

Please do not write "your an idiot". Just sounds bad.

Also mediocracy is making your points of idiocy not look good.

Did you mean: mediocrity?

That is exacyly what I meant. I was just writing what the guy who called someone an idiot wrote. I think it is stupid to try to correct grammar and spelling here but when you call someone an idiot then please don't make yourself look like one.

your an idiot wrote:

This is not about Chapman vs Helmer. THis is about the current runners being douche bags and hating anyone who has run for Indiana University in the past. Alteast you guys are building your own legacy of mediocracy.

I think it is not the current guys hating the previous guys, but in fact the other way around, because as far as I can tell all I've read here is bad things about the team and their lack of accomplishment this year. I say give em' a break, and if track season rolls around and they don't perform then we'll see you on here again. Assuming your heads are still up your asses.

I bet if I talked to those guys right now they won't have anything negative to say about Chapman or Kennedy or Haas or the Jeffersons. Thus proving you false and as idiotic as you seem to be hinting to us that you are.

I think that Another HS Coach has it just about right. I would disagree with the idea that there was no tradition under Chapman. The amount of animosity coming from the former IU guys is because something they cared about changed without their control. That being said I don’t think chapman was very good at mentally preparing guys for racing. And I guess he was even worse at dealing w/ HS coaches.

One thing I would add to another HS coaches’ statement would be that Helmer got off on the wrong foot with many people because of the coaching staff he hired. With the exception of coach Hunton I can’t think of a single coach that he hired that is qualified to be at IU.

Couple of things that haven't been pointed out yet

--Helmer is an excellent coach. For women. With men, Gags then Pat Henner did all of the coaching at Georgetown. I think we are seeing this at Indiana. The women are doing well and the men are disatisfied and not achieving at the level they should.

--Helmer is 61. I don't think anyone thinks he took this job to build Indiana into anything. If he really wanted to be good, he would have kept people like Pate and Chapman on the staff. Instead he didn't keep them, then hired 24 year olds with no coaching experience. Are these the people who is going to lead Indiana to the "top of the Big Ten?" I think Ron took this as a retirement job to get out of DC. I don't sense he has the athletes' best interests at heart. Just his own.