Time for complete overhaul of 'how to train' US elite distance runners: the system is broken

ripvanracer wrote:

u rule big guy wrote:

the top runners should all move to Oregon and train under Salazar.

Actually what Salazar wants is the best 14 year olds to start training under a system that would gear them towards the olympics. You don't think we already do this in baseball, basketball, tennis, gymnastics, and golf? That is where he got the idea, but for some reason, there is a resistence to start training seriously at that age. Until that bias is resolved, we will have a lesser chance to produce great distance runners. Do you think it was coincidence Tiger was on tv putting a golf ball when he was 2 or 3 years old?

This early specialization is a relatively new thing except in tennis. Even golf did not get young kids until Tiger came onto the scene.

Gymnastics and swimming (how could you not list it) are sports where kids start young with training. Both also have a high degree of technical skill (something running does not require). Yet even with swimming which requires a very good aerobic development, swimmers start young but parents seem to want and encourage that.

Phelps' coach started his Olympic prep when he was 11.

I think what swimming has is a very well developed club system with very good coaching all the way down the line. Swimming educates its coaches very well.

I am not sure distance running does the same. While swimming has several staff members devoted to club development and soon will add a whole slew of sport scientists to aid the club coaches, what does USATF do?

For all those who pooh-pooh the scientists, I would say that swimming seems to have figured out a way to blend in the scientists. Maybe Logan should come out to the OTC and talk with the head of swimming.

Gymnastics is also heavily club oriented. Collegiate gymnasts are pretty much past Olympians or the ones who could not quite crack that level. Collegiate swimming is still a big part of the development process (and many swimmers from other nations attend colleges and remain to train in the US). It seems as if distance running in college is not a big part of that development process.

I think part of the issue is that running is easy so many people think "I will just read a book and know how to train someone". As a person who once coached age groupers and knows a good deal of sport science, it turns out that there is more to it than saying "Go run this workout". I really found out I was a bit more of an Eastern European coach than I ever imagined. Now if you have enough athletes someone will come from any system and be very good, but you will not get a lot.

As my daughter started kindergarten today, I wondered how many kids walk or run to school (or even ride bikes). There is something to be said of the "training" the Africans get by walking to school many miles each way each day. (I know this is not the case as much anymore and that the "identified" kids often board at school).

I also think that parents are partly to blame. The current crop of kids are overprotected. So many Dateline stories about child abductions and parents are freaked. Yet most abductions occur not from some kid playing with friends but from someone who knows the kid already. How many parents let their kids get out of sight to ride the bike or run?

As a parent myself I am torn between how I was raised (left home in the AM, came back for lunch--sometimes--and then home for dinner and back out) to being overprotective. The latter might make it hard for a kid to be fit. I suspect that some of the obesity issues come from both parents working as well. (Cutting the tax burden would help but still my generation and younger want to have so much "stuff"---of which I will admit to being guilty).

What to do? I think there are no easy solutions and all the posting here will do nothing. Hemming and hawing will do little. How about getting your kids and the kids in the neighborhood to race down the street or around a block. That might be far better than anything else.

i think the fact that we're getting away from that sort of thinking and back to doing miles, though not quite as manya s we need to yet, is why US distance running isn't as bad as it had bee recently.

I think you are misinterpreting Lydiard's most important advice.

The other stuff, he was completely wrong about, but this is what people wrongly focus on. Developing Aerobic base fitness is the easy part. Developing power and efficiency in your stride is the hard part.

I know I'm wasting my time trying to explain this to you HRE, but people who really want to learn, might hopefull show an interest in getting away from the same old meaningless aerobic base blather and actually want to learn what really makes the difference.

Let me put it this way. You run an awesome race, you run a lousy race, your aerobic capacity is the same in both races.

WHY?

wellnow, your blather is getting quite tiresome.

Just thought you'd like to know.

The amount of whining on this board is intolerable. Comparing the placing of American athletes today versus that of 50 or more years ago is ridiculous. The major difference being that there wasn't a significant African presence or interest in the Olympic Games until after Kip Keino won gold in 1968.

Back in the wooden wheel we really weren't competing against the world, we were competing against Europeans, Russians and the South Pacific (there were a smattering of individuals from other countries). Take a look at the 10000 meter results from this year, of the 39 competitors that qualified for the olympics only 15 were not of African heritage. The highest non-African placer was Galen Rupp. Had this race been run with the same limited sphere of competitors as the 1950s, he would have probably won gold.

Track and field is probably the most competitive sport in the world (soccer is close) due to the fact that it is easily accessible to people in every part of the globe and is not as financially restrictive as other sports (Michael Phelps is a great swimmer, but he is not competing against the same quantity of competitors as track and field due to the limited access to the sport for much of the world's population, and any attempts to proclaim him the greatest olympian ever are ridiculous). The reason our women typically do better than our men in international competition is due to the fact that in many countries women are treated as second class citizens and are not competing in athletics.

In conclusion, the US system is not broken, when a country with 4.5% of the world's population is winning 12-13% of the medals, it is actually doing a pretty good job. Given the fact that a lot of our talent pool in this country is diluted by other, more lucrative sports (if you were to take 30 pounds off of some of the running backs, defensive backs and receivers in the NFL and train them for sprints, you might see a half dozen people break 9.7), it is amazing that we perform as well as we do.

You guys are crazy. How many European runners were there in contention in the 10,000?

We can talk about training methods, college vs club, etc.. but it appears obvious to me that the big buggaboo that no body wants to talk about is race. East Africans are playing on a different level than the rest of us.

When was the last major marathon not won by an east african? What was the the last major distance race of any kind won by someone of European decent? Face it- we really need to have the East African distance races, and then let everyone else race each other in a B Squad event.

[quote]yepyepyep wrote:

You guys are crazy. How many European runners were there in contention in the 10,000?

I do not give a rip about European runners. I care about US runners and there is NO excuse for us to be a non-factor in the distance races.

yepyepyep wrote:

When was the last major marathon not won by an east african? What was the the last major distance race of any kind won by someone of European decent?

2004 Olympic Marathon: Baldini

luv2run wrote:

As my daughter started kindergarten today, I wondered how many kids walk or run to school (or even ride bikes). There is something to be said of the "training" the Africans get by walking to school many miles each way each day. (I know this is not the case as much anymore and that the "identified" kids often board at school).

You're absolutely correct. This actually points out how the OP is wrong. It has little to do with "training".

The athletes at the games for the US aren't trained wrong. They're just not good enough athletes.....at least as a short answer. The answer does include some of what you posted but "training" is likely down the list a bit.

yepyepyep wrote:

When was the last major marathon not won by an east african?

Of the 39 Olympic medals won since 1960, East Africans have won 11 medals (by 7 athletes)

For you conspiracy theorists out there, the number of East African medalists since the introduction of Epogen (1988) is better, but not by much. 15 medals awarded, 7 to East Africans (by 6 athletes)

1960

Marathon (42.195 km.)

1 Abebe Bikila ETH 2.15.16 WR

2 Abdesselem Ben Rhadi MAR 2.15.41

3 Barry Magee NZL 2.17.18

4 Konstantin Vorobyev URS 2.19.09

5 Sergey Popov URS 2.19.18

6 Thyge Thögersen DEN 2.21.03

7 Abebe Wakgira ETH 2.21.10

8 Bakir Benaissa MOR 2.21.22

1964

Marathon (42.195 km.)

1 Abebe Bikila ETH 2.12.11 WR

2 Basil Heatley GBR 2.16.19

3 Kogichi Tsuburaya JPN 2.16.22

4 Brian Kilby GBR 2.17.02

5 Jenö Sutö HUN 2.17.55

6 Leonard Edelen USA 2.18.12

7 Auréle Vandendriessche BEL 2.18.42

8 Kenji Kimihara JPN 2.19.49

1968

Marathon (42.195 km.)

1 Mamo Wolde ETH 2.20.26

2 Kenji Kimihara JPN 2.23.31

3 Mike Ryan NZL 2.23.45

4 Ismail Akcay TUR 2.25.18

5 William Adcocks GBR 2.25.33

6 Gabrou Merawi ETH 2.27.16

7 Derek Clayton AUS 2.27.23

8 Tim Johnston GBR 2.28.04

1972

Marathon (42.195 km.)

1 Frank Shorter USA 2.12.19

2 Karel Lismont BEL 2.14.31

3 Mamo Wolde ETH 2.15.08

4 Ken Moore USA 2.15.39

5 Kenji Kimihara JPN 2.16.27

6 Ron Hill GBR 2.16.30

7 Don MacGregor GBR 2.16.34

8 John Foster NZL 2.16.56

1976

1 Waldemar Cierpinski GDR 2.09.55

2 Frank Shorter USA 2.10.45

3 Karel Lismont BEL 2.11.12

4 Donald Kardong USA 2.11.15

5 Lasse Viren FIN 2.13.10

6 Jerome Drayton CAN 2.13.30

7 Leonid Moseyev URS 2.13.33

8 Franco Fava ITA 2.14.24

1980

1 Waldemar Cierpinski GDR 2.11.03

2 Gerard Nijboer NED 2.11.20

3 Satymkul Dzhumanazarov URS 2.11.35

4 Vladimir Kotov URS 2.12.05

5 Leonid Moseyev URS 2.12.14

6 Rodolfo Gomez MEX 2.12.39

7 Dereje Nedi ETH 2.12.44

8 Massimo Magnani ITA 2.13.12

1984

1 Carlos Lopes POR 2.09.21

2 John Treacy IRL 2.09.56

3 Charles Spedding GBR 2.09.58

4 Takeshi Soh JPN 2.10.55

5 Robert de Castella AUS 2.11.09

6 Juma Ikangaa TZA 2.11.10

7 Joseph Nzau KEN 2.11.28

8 Djamo Robleh DJI 2.11.39

1988

1 Gelindo Bordin ITA 2.10.32

2 Douglas Wakiihuri KEN 2.10.47

3 Ahmed Salah DJI 2.10.59

4 Takeyuki Nakayama JPN 2.11.05

5 Stephen Moneghetti AUS 2.11.49

6 Charles Spedding GBR 2.12.19

7 Juma Ikangaa TZA 2.13.06

8 Robert de Castella AUS 2.13.07

1992

1 Hwang Young-Cho KOR 2.13.23

2 Koichi Morishita JPN 2.13.45

3 Stephan Freigang GER 2.14.00

4 Takeyuki Nakayama JPN 2.14.02

5 Salvatore Bettiol ITA 2.14.15

6 Salah Kokaich MAR 2.14.25

7 Jan Huruk POL 2.14.32

8 Hiromi Taniguchi JPN 2.14.42

1996

1 Josiah Thugwane RSA 2.12.36

2 Lee Bong-Ju KOR 2.12.39

3 Eric Wainaina KEN 2.12.44

4 Martin Fiz ESP 2.13.20

5 Richard Nerurkar GBR 2.13.39

6 German Silva MEX 2.14.29

7 Stephen Moneghetti AUS 2.14.35

8 Benjamin Paredes MEX 2.14.55

2000

1 Gezahegne Abera ETH 2.10.11

2 Eric Wainaina KEN 2.10.31

3 Tesfaye Tola ETH 2.11.10

4 Jon Brown GBR 2.11.17

5 Giacomo Leone ITA 2.12.14

6 Martin Fiz ESP 2.13.06

7 Abdelkader El Mouaziz MAR 2.13.49

8 Mohamed Ouaadi FRA 2.14.04

2004

1 Stefano Baldini ITA 2.10.55

2 Mebrahtom Keflezighi USA 2.11.29

3 Vanderlei de Lima BRA 2.12.11

4 Jon Brown GBR 2.12.26

5 Shigeru Aburaya JPN 2.13.11

6 Toshinari Suwa JPN 2.13.24

7 Eric Wainaina KEN 2.13.30

8 Alberto Chaica POR 2.14.17

wellnow wrote:

I think you are misinterpreting Lydiard's most important advice.

The other stuff, he was completely wrong about, but this is what people wrongly focus on. Developing Aerobic base fitness is the easy part. Developing power and efficiency in your stride is the hard part.

I know I'm wasting my time trying to explain this to you HRE, but people who really want to learn, might hopefull show an interest in getting away from the same old meaningless aerobic base blather and actually want to learn what really makes the difference.

Let me put it this way. You run an awesome race, you run a lousy race, your aerobic capacity is the same in both races.

WHY?

Because my feet spend more time on the ground than the faster guys.

Malmo, it's their improvement in the 5 and 10 that raised eyebrows. Improvement all of a sudden in 1987, right after the less than trustworthy Dr. Gabriele Rosa "left" cycling and began to work with Kenyans, soon followed by the sketchy Jos Hermens who began working with Ethiopians, and then good ol' E. German boy Kostre put his foot in...

There needs to be a major paradigm shift in the US regarding this. Take the high school kid who is running 22 seconds in the 200 and move him up to the 800 or 1600, he is going nowhere n the 200. The kid who rus 47 - 48 seconds the same, move him up to the mile and so on.

Most kids in the west start at least 10000+ miles behind their Arican counterparts, that level of aerobic development is almost impossible to make up. Problem is kids in the US don't play enough anymore. It is going to be much worse after 2012, there is no media glamour anymore in distance running otherwise you would be seeing much better coverage.

You need to be smart about this. Moving that 200m guy up to the 800 is a waste if he can't use that 22 speed to run a 47. Why move the 400m guy up to the mile until he can run a 1.46? Obviously you have to adjust the training to take into the possiblity of moving up later (maybe do a bit more aerobic work than you normally would for a 400 guy). And most of those 200m guys are never going to be good 800m runners. The are good 200m runners and will not be great 800m men. But it is worth the shot where if you can get 100 of them to try, maybe you find 2 or 3.

troll:) wrote:

There needs to be a major paradigm shift in the US regarding this. Take the high school kid who is running 22 seconds in the 200 and move him up to the 800 or 1600, he is going nowhere n the 200. The kid who rus 47 - 48 seconds the same, move him up to the mile and so on.

Most kids in the west start at least 10000+ miles behind their Arican counterparts, that level of aerobic development is almost impossible to make up. Problem is kids in the US don't play enough anymore. It is going to be much worse after 2012, there is no media glamour anymore in distance running otherwise you would be seeing much better coverage.

The problem is K-12, where one has to deal with track coaches who have no idea what they're doing, as I did (and I wasn't in the sticks--I was just down the road from Spivey and Art Seimers' HS).The only reason why I did anything in HS was because my fellow distance runners told our coach that we'd plan our own workouts because daily running of repeat 200s in February on a snowy track isn't the way to produce a good mile or two-mile time in May.

A couple problems:

1. Club Coaches: Other sports (gymnastics, tennis, summer-league ball, pop warner) are dominated by coaches who know what the hell they are talking about. They are coached by coaches who have actually participated in the sport they are coaching.

2. Track/XC Coaches: A lot of these guys are simply thrown the bone because no one else wants to do it. They are learning on the job, former football coaches, etc. Even better....maybe they are even recreational fitness joggers!...:) Maybe after 5-10 years they finally learn how to really coach and train.

Alan

The main thing I think everyone is missing is that the vast majority of american distance kids are smart, middle to upper class. Nothing wrong with this but it doesnt create very mentally tough athletes. They have been handed or havent had to work hard for what they have. You can talk all day about training methods and such but give me a kid who really has a reason to run.

You mean it's not fixed yet? Put Brooks Johnson in charge,

He keeps returning from whatever he did(I'm not sure)

But everone kisses his ass still, so let him run USA Distance.

Another problem has always been politics....AAU, TAC, USATF, etc.

It's hard to focus on the actual development on athletes when you're focusing on trips to Hawaii, Colorado, etc.

Alan