Time for complete overhaul of 'how to train' US elite distance runners: the system is broken

Yes! Maybe it took a meltdown in the middle distances (and the 5 and 10k to come; be honest) to wake up USA track.

Training like Bob Schul is the answer! Igloi knew you need to get comfortable running at faster paces than race pace while simultaneously developing aerobically was essential.

u r not kidding wrote:

Yes! Maybe it took a meltdown in the middle distances (and the 5 and 10k to come; be honest) to wake up USA track.

Did Webb have it right? I mean obviously not quite right because he didn't make the team, but as summer went on he looked quite a bit sharper, and instead of hitting the downswing by this time of year, he was on the rise. Is there something flawed with the US system of qualifying? I like that there are clear standards... but if top guys like Webb need to focus on August, while the B guys who good are focusing on the trials, is it shocking that some of those guys can knock off our top runners who can't afford to focus on the trials? And then we don't send our best team? Instead we send those most prepared for the trials, and this doesn't equal most prepared for the Olympics

I'll say oit before and I'll say it agian.

We need to get away from this obsession with hi tech gadgets, meaningless splits, senseless VO2max reading, and focus on RUNNING.

The Africans are not only gifted athletes, but they do it the right way. They run big volumes and they run them hard and they rest when necessary.

Its not that complicated. Get a good coach who understands the simplicity of the sport and works on his athletes strengths and weaknesses.

Get away from the lab.

surely you jest - "not quite right"

yes, he looked sharper, because he actually raced or didn't pull a DNF.

we sent the best team that we had. what has webb done since the trials?

webb has proven nothing, except that he can't "do it" when it counts.

Well, our best guy in the 10K was the one using all these high tech gadgets and training in the lab...

Tomi2Nutts wrote:

I'll say oit before and I'll say it agian.

We need to get away from this obsession with hi tech gadgets, meaningless splits, senseless VO2max reading, and focus on RUNNING.

The Africans are not only gifted athletes, but they do it the right way. They run big volumes and they run them hard and they rest when necessary.

Its not that complicated. Get a good coach who understands the simplicity of the sport and works on his athletes strengths and weaknesses.

Get away from the lab.

and "supplements"

really wrote:

Well, our best guy in the 10K was the one using all these high tech gadgets and training in the lab...

Tomi2Nutts wrote:

I'll say oit before and I'll say it agian.

We need to get away from this obsession with hi tech gadgets, meaningless splits, senseless VO2max reading, and focus on RUNNING.

The Africans are not only gifted athletes, but they do it the right way. They run big volumes and they run them hard and they rest when necessary.

Its not that complicated. Get a good coach who understands the simplicity of the sport and works on his athletes strengths and weaknesses.

Get away from the lab.

Oh snap!

The visit to the endocrinologist in Houston must have been helpful.

yeah, I completely agree.

We need to stop being a bunch of pussy-willows and

start drugging up like all the other fearless athletes.

Ok, and how well did he do? Was he ever a factor? And how about if he focused on actual real training instead of Salazars nonsense? All that multimillion dollar equipment and this is what we got out of it.

Glad it looks promising to you.

Pretty simply really. There needs to be a collective recognition that 1+1>2, 1+1+1>5, 1+1+1+1>13, 1+1+1+1+1>34, etc.

By this I'm saying that top distance runners need to be training together. Not for short stints either. They ought to live on the same property, or very nearby. Put the top 147* distance runners on the same compound for a couple years and watch them wreak havoc on the rest of the world.

It'd take a singluar focus by the athletes involved, to a degree they aren't likely used to.

*-Using 147 because that's been shown to be the maximum number of people you can have in a community and still feel a connection to everybody.

The olympic training centers kinda sorta begin to do this, but not to the same scale and not to the same level of focus.

Pretty much they just need to let me run the world, right?!

While early results this weekend are not promising, the US has certainly seen some dramatic improvement in the distance events recently.

Flanagan in the 10k in this Olympics

Webb has run some fast times - just not this year when he needed to.

Kastor and Meb both came home with medals in '04 and they are training the old fashioned way - just hard work and no "fancy gagets".

Symmonds may do something in the 800m, but I do fear his lack of racing since the trials will leave him less than sharp. There is no room for error in advancing. It won't be lack of training if he fails to run in the final - it will be lack of racing.

Rowberry has a legit shot at a medal in the women's 1500m.

The men's marathon could be a show of recent progress as well. Deena's injury prevented the US from doing anything in the women's race - I really think she would have been in the top 10 and had a real shot at a medal. She is a great racer.

I think overall the progress of American distance running has been substantial over the past 6 years. I know you measure success to great extent through Olympic performance, but you have to look at other things as well when evaluating the entire program.

Dathan, Leo, Lopez, and Rupp are all very young. As is Symmonds and Wheating. Rowberry is pretty young too. Look for Price in the women's 800m in 2012. Other young atheltes continue to put up great junior times. There are only so many medals up for grabs. Anyone who thought that Lagat was going to dominate the 1500 and 5000 was kidding themselves. He is getting older and no one is going to let the 5k pace go as slow as it did at the WC.

Tomi2Nutts wrote:

I'll say oit before and I'll say it agian.

We need to get away from this obsession with hi tech gadgets, meaningless splits, senseless VO2max reading, and focus on RUNNING.

The Africans are not only gifted athletes, but they do it the right way. They run big volumes and they run them hard and they rest when necessary.

Its not that complicated. Get a good coach who understands the simplicity of the sport and works on his athletes strengths and weaknesses.

Get away from the lab.

From a post-10K article on Flanagan (http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer08/trackandfield/columns/story?id=3537975 ):

On a relatively cool night in Beijing, Flanagan decided to ditch the high-tech, ice-filled warm-up vest that's supposed to regulate temperature before a race. "She said [screw] it, we won't use the ice vest," Cook said. "She was just a soldier."

I've been saying for years that the US high school and collegiate system is the problem for US distance running. Too many cooks in the kitchen, random administrators, athletic directors, and, yes, coaches and parents, maintaining their interest in the old English amateurism ethic. You cannot really choose your coaching or competitive/developmental direction through the age of 18 or 19 in America, based on where your parents purchased a house, and who happens to be coaching at that high school's boundaries.

You have a "choice" of colleges, but, as many of you adamantly defend (and even defend at the high school level), it's all about competing at that given level, that given week or season, against these given conference rivals, etc.

As many of you have replied, it's the coaches job, at the high school and college level, to win, not to develop runners for the next level. That's what they get paid to do, and it's your duty as an athlete to buy into that system.

So it is an inherently flawed system, that is too myopic in its implementation, in a sport that has proved to be a long-term development oriented endeavour.

I have always promoted an Olympic Development style program, from the state, regional, to national team level, to identify, train, develop, and compete with youth athletes over a long term period in the developmentally critical years, from post-puberty to junior level (u23?) These coaches would not be self-interested at the local "team" level, they would operate within and have the interest of the national program as the central focus.

Not too hard, just well out of our current mindset as a scholastic-centric sport. It will step on local coaches' toes, guys who have had their little gigs for years, and who are local big-timers, but it would change the focus from weekly or seasonal emphases, to 4-year, 8-year plans, for the identified elite level junior athletes.

When no program, at your given level, is above you to strive for as a coach and athlete, than you settle for the goal you are presented with in your program's system (e.g., high school conference, state championships). When an Olympic development program hovers above the high school program, you now have a system with a different set of goals, set out by an organization and coaches with different motivations.

no excuses..... wrote:

the richest country in the world,

therein lies the problem. we are spoiled, weak, not driven.

I'd have to agree with Mr. Nutts. There is a reason why Brian Sell and Ryan Hall are as good as they are. I think the marathon trials woke Dathan up as to what he needs to do to compete for a medal. He should be running with Ryan, not behind him. Paul Tergat has run 200 mile weeks and is still a force even at his "old" age. Coach Vig talks about Manzano being "young" and "very undertrained".(Flotrack interview @ 5:53. http://www.flotrack.org/videos/coverage/view_video/234057/72004-vig-on-leo) Typical USA attitude. Young....no. Undertrained....yes. And we're waiting for what? This is the Olympics! Pamela Jelimo, Asbel Kiprop, Augustine Choge, Linet Masai(the chick who finished just behind Shalane) and others who are really and truly young are excelling on the world scene. Kinda reminds me of Gerry Lindgren,Jim Ryun and Webb. The dude that took the bronze in the men's 10k is the same age as Rupp. I am afraid that German Fernandez and the others of this class will suffer the same fate as most of the talented runners who preceded him.

US elite distane shall start to use Lydiard's Base Training as an Ultra Program. It did work more than 50 years ago with Bo Schul and Billi Mills. Get back to Lydiard. Don´t you see the japan women what they did in Beijing

terps wrote:.blah blah blah

Yes, the same system that routs the world in every other Olympic Games or Worlds Championships is suddenly broken?

It's a good thing no one in charge is listening to you.