Anyone try the FIRST training program?

what kind of background do you have? how many years running/racing?

do you like to go hard every run?

do you like to cross train? if so, doing what?

what's your goal for the marathon?

first before first existed wrote:

what kind of background do you have? how many years running/racing?

do you like to go hard every run?

do you like to cross train? if so, doing what?

what's your goal for the marathon?

I've run some local races. Mostly 5k's. Just haphazard training.

I love running hard. I tried to train for a marathon once and hated the long and slow running.

Cross training is OK. I use the eliptical at the gym during the winter. I ride my bike some during the summer.

I was going to use the plan for the 5k and 10k, not the marathon.

Thanks.

I looked at the FIRST program and read the book they put out. Most of what they use for examples are anectodes but that doesnt mean it doesnt work of course. I had several questions like for example how much mileage should you be putting in to even start the program, and here is the thread I started about it

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=2030625&thread=2030625

there were the usual letsrun skeptics.

I tried to sign up for their course in SC but it was full. I emailed them several times but got no response.

bottom line I think is

*if it works for you it works FOR YOU, doesnt mean applicability across the board*

certainly much as we hate to admit we are all susceptible to ideas which yield shortcuts, even the high mileage advocates.

it will probably work well for 5-10k.

long easy running is an essential component of nearly every training program.

I have a friend who was part of thier second study. His time in the marathon improved by 3 or 4 minutes. As long as you can handle the hard workouts, you will be fine and likely improve. The thing is that for many people the workouts are just too tough. If you search the threads for 3 days traing each week you will find some good stories of people that have come up with thier own 3 day training with success.

Maybe they're too tough because people have tons of miles on their legs and can't handle it.

Did the people who came up with this program ever try it on poeple who were the RW type and on the high mileage people?

This was posted a while back and could be tailored to what the OP seems to want?

Remember, not all good runners run 7 days a week or even 5.

****maybe i should call this: i was FIRST before FIRST was cool

...regarding the efficacy of training 3 days a week. I started running 3 days a week many years ago, while in graduate school, seeking to find some balance in my life and deal with the time requirements of work, school, relationship, and fitness. I quickly found that I didn’t slow down any, in fact I got faster. I found I could train harder on the running days, since the total rest days (for the legs) ensured more complete recovery.

I’ve been called a dilettante and a dabbler by some (less than tactful) former forumites. I think with more than 500 road races and multi-sport events (including 28 marathons) recorded in my logs (and the corresponding t-shirts taking up space in my basement), those are not accurate labels. I can only laugh at comments I’ve seen, like “a real runner wouldn’t run only 3 times a week” or “no one who really loves running only runs 3 days a week” allow me to quote one of the fastest marathoners in the world, Paul Tergat: “at the end of the day, running is a passion. It is not my whole life.” I couldn’t agree more.

I love to run and always have - going on 30 years now. But it is not the be-all and end-all of my existence; it’s close, but not quite. I also love to work out in the gym - almost as much as I love running. And as a part-time personal trainer for several years, it was important that I maintained a frequent presence in the gym.

I also see frequent comments like: “you won’t run your best on 3 days a week” or “there’s no way you can PR on such a program: or “you can finish a marathon, but you won’t maximize your potential” to those, I respond that I did indeed set a PR on 3 days a week, and broke a 15-year-old time set when I trained (under a college coach’s guidance) at least 6 days a week and ran more than twice my recent average mileage. on 3 days a week, I got fit enough to run even faster, but hot weather denied me a chance to lower my PR even further. And 3 days a week has kept me from slowing down very much as I’ve moved into my late-40’s. (2:57:05 and 2:58:03 marathons in Chicago and Boston, respectively, in 2006 at age 47)

Will you achieve your absolute ultimate best possible marathon performance on 3 days a week? I doubt it. but think about this: how many of us are realistically pursuing that goal? How many of us are really in a position to devote that much time and energy to this sport, no matter how much we love it? I suggest what we really do, most of us anyway, is try to run the best we can, under our own individual circumstances, making our own choices, which include career and family commitments.

I took almost 11 years between marathons, from January ‘83 to December ‘93. When I decided to get back into it, and get my BQ, I read every training program I could get my hands on in books and magazines. I sifted through them all and realized that certain elements were common to almost all of them. I eliminated the recovery runs; (I leave it to you whether they are “junk miles” or not) included what i considered the essentials and set up my own program. I was coming off years of multi-sport (triathlon and duathlon) training, I was sure I could run a good marathon on 3 days a week.

Let me make one thing perfectly clear. This is not for everyone. It is not easy. When you are in the midst of the program, it is intense. Every workout is “quality” and there are no real easy days. The overall fatigue is the same as one gets with more running. But, it is a viable option; my results over more than 14 years of marathons support my claim and I think FIRST supports that claim - despite the questions about the validity of their studies.

I will never argue that high mileage plans don’t work, but I would argue that there is an alternative to higher mileage. there is another path to both finishing a marathon and running a fast marathon. Is it a “short cut?” not really. Is it a “get the marathon finisher’s medal the easiest way possible” plan? nope. I think you could do that by jogging a couple of times a week for 30-45 minutes and doing 1 long run per week. I’ve known folks to comfortably finish marathons on just such a program. And I’m not making any RW-type “best” promises.

I wouldn’t recommend the training program to a beginner. I think someone with at least a few years of running and general fitness under their belt and a variety of training experience would be the best candidate for this kind of program.

My structured marathon training is usually 15-16 weeks and each week looks like this:

long run

2 of these 3:

speed work: usually repeat 800's or 1600's

tempo run

marathon pace run

at the outset the elements are usually: 4 x 800 (2 min interval); 2 x 10 min at tempo; 5-6 miles at MP; long run of 90 min.

the peak for each element is usually: 10 x 800; 40 min tempo run; 13.1 miles at MP; just under 3-hour long run. the longest week is around 38 miles. (I’ll go over 40 if I do a short race on Saturday) the mileage avg. over 15 weeks usually falls around 26 or 27.

you may notice I don’t include hill work, which is a common element to many programs. All of my long runs here in western NC are very hilly, and so are most of my runs when I’m not in a training program.

I am a big believer in goal-pace training (MP). I think the more natural and comfortable your goal pace feels, the more likely you are to hold it for more than 20 miles on race day - and acquiring that natural feel and comfort for the pace requires practice. I frequently do MP and tempo runs on the treadmill. And on the TM I do mixed workout: MP runs with tempo elements, where I do hills at goal pace, which, if you look at conversion charts, makes it a tempo-type effort for part of the run. and I do tempo segments of 10-15 minutes in between 10-15 min. of MP on either side.

as for cross training; I do an intense ~60 minute upper body/core workout 3 days a week and take one day off; although on my days off I frequently go for hikes here in western NC and when I lived at the beach in SC I would usually go sea kayaking or for a beach bike ride - so my “rest” days are frequently active.

it all comes down to your preferences and choices. what do you want and what are you willing to do to achieve it? what do you like to do?...

That is very interesting. It looks like something that is right up my alley.

Thanks for that. I'm definitely going to give this a try.

Danny Ford wrote:

I have a friend who was part of thier second study. His time in the marathon improved by 3 or 4 minutes. As long as you can handle the hard workouts, you will be fine and likely improve. The thing is that for many people the workouts are just too tough. If you search the threads for 3 days traing each week you will find some good stories of people that have come up with thier own 3 day training with success.

Isn't the First program something like 5-6 days training a week, and all of it hard? Near as I know there's 2-3 hard crosstraining days in there.

it's not really a "study" if there are no controls perhaps your friend's PR would have been 10 minutes off of Pfitz

Danny Ford wrote:

I have a friend who was part of thier second study. His time in the marathon improved by 3 or 4 minutes. As long as you can handle the hard workouts, you will be fine and likely improve. The thing is that for many people the workouts are just too tough. If you search the threads for 3 days traing each week you will find some good stories of people that have come up with thier own 3 day training with success.

I have a theory too wrote:

Isn't the First program something like 5-6 days training a week, and all of it hard? Near as I know there's 2-3 hard crosstraining days in there.

I think that is the part that get lost in the shuffle. People see 3 days of running and the other days as rest. You're going to have to hit it hard on those cross training days if you're only running 3x week. That means no lollygagging on the eliptical or dragging tail on the stationary bike. You better be working the heck out.

One of the local masters runners in my area only runs 4-5x a weeks, longest run is like 5 miles. But he runs every day hard- no just going out for a run. (He's nationally ranked too.)