How to Ensure Footlocker XC Continues in the Future?

FutureStar wrote:

... my feeling is that we are getting into too many races and too long of a post-season. When kids have to race hard at Leagues, Districts, States, BorderWars, Nike Regionals (or Foot Locker Regionals, then Nationals all within six weeks, everyone is burned out.

if your team is really good, why are you bothering with your league meet? and if you're so concerned, don't take them to BorderWars.

Basically, if your team has a shot at being on the podium at NTN, there are only 3 races you really need to run - your state meet, Nike regionals, and NTN. usually all within about 3-4 weeks of each other.

put to rest all the other crap - meaningless invites in late september or early october, and worry about what's important.

wejo wrote:

And yes XC for a lot of people is about the team. But on the high school level I think the state championship is enough.

Wejo, that pretty much sums it up for me. It is high school sports. That is the reason a lot states put restrictions on travel and length of season, it is a high school sport and should not be a be-all-end-all. There is no need for a national championship.

Logistically, it makes perfect sense for Nike to want to host NTN in Portland and use their facilities in Beaverton. FL going to SD is very different. NTN involves about 400 athletes and coaches. Make that 500 this fall with the addition of individuals.

"Well s*** lets see them make a real investment in our sport." You've got to be kidding. Like them or not, you really don't think they're making an investment in our sport?

It's already been pointed out a few times on the forum, but Nike made multiple attempts to get FL on board, but FL wanted to keep an individual-only format.

"There is absolutely no better experience for a high schooler than getting flown out to the hotel del coronado and spending time with a bunch of their peers in a truly unforgettable weekend." Have you ever talked to anyone who has experienced NTN? I guarantee they will say the same thing about being flown out to Portland and running at NTN.

? wrote:

It is high school sports.

There is no need for a national championship.

Do you feel the same way about Foot Locker? I may disagree, but I can respect the opinion that none of these post-season meets are necessary, but I don't see why an individual championship is ok, but a team championship is too much. It's ok for individuals to run x-amount of meets beyond their state meet and risk burnout, but it's not ok for a group of kids to do the same thing?

? wrote:

Wejo, that pretty much sums it up for me. It is high school sports. That is the reason a lot states put restrictions on travel and length of season, it is a high school sport and should not be a be-all-end-all. There is no need for a national championship.

I would have more respect for the whole thing as well if it was above board. Have each team compete as what it is a high school team and talk to the federations and get it approved. But they would never go for that as this is high school sports.

Instead they are "club" teams (but in reality the exact same team, but I think Nike makes them fly a different coach out there. Someone correct me if I'm wrong)

I have 2 questions:

1) which states realize what this is and have banned their teams from NTN?

2) what prevents a group of 7 guys from the same region getting together and creating an allstar team? Either it is a club championship or a team championship.

Michigan allows no teams, but does allow individuals to compete post season. So, Ritz was able to run in FootLocker, but his state champion team would not have been allowed to run NTN (had it existed). Not 100% certain, but I think Wisconsin is the same way.

The reason the "clubs" are formed is to get around State HS rules - many of which prohibit traveling over a certain distance to compete.

FL is a pinnacle of the sport for a HS elite. NTN is the pinnacle of the sport now for a team - a 5th runner if you will.

My question would be to Johnny Rotten and those other HS coaches on the board. If you had a true real stud, someone capable of top 5 at FL who wants to see how good they are as an individual, who did NOT want to run NTN - and your team would not make NTN without that stud - what would you do? Not make the attempt? Make the stud feel guilty? Would the team put tremendous pressure on the stud? This situation occurred this year in Indiana (Fout) - 2nd in state, had a shot, Fout did not go to NTN, results known to all reading this discussion. If the races had been combined, perhaps things change.

Sad, because I can remember when the Kinney meet was the pinnacle of the season. I remember a guy diving at the line in 1979 impaling himself on the chute stakes to just miss qualifying for FL Nats. Now, I'm left to chase a masters medal at the WI FL regional - which is my biggest race of the year - and wonder if 2008 is my last chance to ever medal at one of these things.

Mackwamba

wejo wrote:

I would have more respect for the whole thing as well if it was above board.

Instead they are "club" teams...

You must be a mind reader!

For "some needed perspective", it has nothing to do with running x number of meets for an individual or a team. For individuals at FL, it is an individual pursuit. I don't look at FL as a national championship, they are the FL champion. Not sure if that makes sense, but that is how I view it.

The NTN is a pseudo "National" champion. Not all states can participate. Like Wejo said, they are "clubs". To me is just makes no sense. We are only talking about a relative handful of kids. If there in no team "national" championship race, the kids are not being deprived of something, they don't "deserve" this trip. In almost all cases there is plenty of competition within their states. This is just high schools sports. It needs to be kept in perspective. If the aspire to more, there is the NCAA (I, II, and III), NAIA, NJCAA. They can criss-cross the country until their heart's content.

Oh, and just for clarification, I am not bagging on any of the HS teams or athletes that participate at NTN. They have worked hard to get to a top level.

Look, Footlocker should have done the team concept itself all along.

It chose not to, now Nike is stepping up and offering both, so I support Nike here.

To those whining about the tradition of Footlocker/Kinsey, give it a rest. The race should be about the kids, and the kids don't care about tradition. It's only the old timers still trying to hang on to past memories that care about it.

?,

Fair enough and thanks for the response. I hope I didn't imply that anyone "deserves" the NTN trip, but one could also make this argument about FL. I agree wholeheartedly that high school sports need to be kept in perspective, but I don't believe that NTN is preventing that from happening and I don't see how this applies to teams, but not individuals. Why is it ok for an individual to aspire for more during the high school years, but not ok for a team of guys/girls to want the same thing?

wejo wrote:Plus with the way XC scoring is done I think at the high school level a team national champion really is dependent on who is in the race and how the scoring is done . The top individuals will be crushing most of the guys in the team competition. Maybe you won't count them in the team scoring but the whole concept of "this team is the national champ" just doesn't resonate as well or mean as much at least to me. Run the race again the next day and I bet for the boys you'll see a lot different winners because the teams are pretty similar.

This seems like a sentiment a good amount of people in this thread are supporting, but isn't this exactly what happens at NCAA's(not to mention state meets)every year?

No, you did not imply anyone "deserves" but I have seen that reasoning on this board for justification for NTN. Sorry about that!

As far as I know there are no restrictions for individuals pursuing post-season events. Anyone can go to FL Regionals and if they qualify, can go to FL Nationals. For NTN this is not true, various states have various rules about travel limits and post-season participation as a team. I think my "keeping in perspective" comment means the that various state hs associations put limits on travel and season length so it does not turn into travel soccer. If there is an exception for XC, then there will need to be an exception for volleyball, and so on. So, I don't look at as just XC being limited and needing to be limited, but all hs sports.

If NTN wanted to have a team club championship that limited participation to hs aged kids all from the same county or some such thing, that would be great. Like Wejo said, I believe it needs to be more above board, and not trying to get around the rules with a wink and a nod.

I couldn't care less whether FL (or NTN) survives. I see little merit in ANY scholastic level national championship. I am not fond of the Little League WS being on national television, either. If anything, I'd prefer to see the better scholastic level runners competing in the USATF Jr. Olympic program and cementing USATF more as the NGB of the sport rather than allowing various corporations with marketing motivations to hijack the competition.

This is a great question, one which we did have to deal with. Our #1 runner had a shot at qualifying from the SE (and won the SE qualifier). About 3 weeks before our state meet, he and I talked about what he wanted to do--whether he wanted to take his shot at FL or whether he wanted to try for NTN. We were certainly no shoo-in for NTN at that time, nor was he a lock for FL. The choice was totally his, because if he'd not really wanted to do the team thing, the whole experience would have sucked and we would have all hated it. He chose the team race, and we made it. Obviously, I am glad that he made that choice, and I would have been a little disappointed, I think if he'd gone the other way, just because on my team we really put a premium on the team and not on the individual during xc season (although we do the opposite during track season).

My guys only ran in 7 races this year: three major invitationals, Region, State, NTN-SE, and NTN. Yes, they were ready for it to be over with when it was finished, but it's generally that way anyway. We did not start racing until September 22.

Let the girls wear more flattering running wear. It's what they want to wear and what people want to see. The way they look now at FL is so old fashioned and dull. They look like FL is held under Sharia Law ;-) Look how dumpy uniforms have destroyed the WNBA and womens soccer. Compare that with NCAA Womens College Volleyball which is at an all time high in popularity with well over 300 D-I teams.

Footlocker is MUCH more interesting..All year long I coach Team,team, team, all the state series is team,team,team..it's great to just have one meet where the competition is individual...

The NTN course stinks compared to Footlocker as well.

Change never seems to occur for the better.

agapius mackwamba wrote: Would the team put tremendous pressure on the stud? This situation occurred this year in Indiana (Fout) - 2nd in state, had a shot, Fout did not go to NTN, results known to all reading this discussion. If the races had been combined, perhaps things change.

It's unlikely that Fout's team - LaPorte (IN) would have had much of a chance to qualify for NTN Nationals, even with him running.

Their team was 2nd, by 10 points, at the Indiana state meet this year to a team (Fishers HS) that finished 4th at NTN Midwest regional - 40 points out of the second spot. The team that was 3rd at the IN state meet - Carmel HS (30 points back of Fout's LaPorte) ran at the NTN MW regional and finished 6th, 120 points out of the second spot.

So, being realistic, Fout's LaPorte would've probably finished top 5 (with top 2 qualifying automatically) but it's unlikely that they had much of a shot to go to NTN Nationals. Their coach - and team - probably realized this and the "decision" to have Fout skip wasn't much of a decision at all.

They need to keep Footlocker and the individual championship seperate. Its a special event. The best of the best. There is great tension in the air during the athlete introductions at the start.

A bunch of 16:10 runners would dilute that effect. Teams can keep their own race.

Interesting question about the situation where a great individual might have to choose. If he's not a jerk he'll help his team and stay hungry to prove himself against the others at another time. After all its just high school anyway. Not the pinnacle of a running career.

That Smart wrote:

I myself doubt that Nike is trying to destroy FL, nor does Nike have sinister motives with NTN, Eugene, U of O.

You're incredibly naive.