Lydiard vs Noakes vs J.Daniels

Chronologically you'd go Lydiard, Daniels and Noakes. But I'd say just start with whatever is handy.

If you get enough responses, "some" will say everything, in all orders and all combinations. The right answer depends on you -- look within yourself to answer what you want to learn, and how you measure "the best".

If you want a nice story, some history, some good principles, and a description of a successful, time proven (albeit 60 years old) approach, look at Lydiard.

If you want practical tips and guidelines, with plenty of lookup tables to help you build the right training plan for your situation -- Daniels is a great resource.

If you want to learn about a new model which goes beyond classical catastrophic explanations for causing fatigue -- have a look at Noakes. For practical implications, perhaps Matt Fitzgeralds' Brain Training would also be of interest.

If you want all of those, why go any further than "letsrun" -- it's all already in there!

All three of those guys have training techniques that are proven to work phenominally. This is because every runner is different and needs a different plan tailored to him/her. If you want to know what is best for you, learn about all of them, try them all out, and see what works for you best. It may even be a combination. I wouldn't leave any out.

In terms of reading them, I'd start with the oldest book and work my way up chronologically.

I did not know Noakes actually had a training technique? His book is basically just a reference for the history of training. His "Central Governor" theory isn't really a training basis...just an explanation of how the body works.

Lydiard and Daniels have actually coached runners. Lydiard has coached Olympians. I'm not sure that Daniels has directly coached Olympians...he has however provided insight to many elite runners. Coaching is about being on the track actually "coaching" the athlete. In that regard:

1. Lydiard: coached Olympians from the ground up from his backyard

2. Daniels: lots of theory, lots of advising to well established athletes, coached successfully at Cortland (DIII, lots of DIII champions and all-americans)

3. Noakes: who has he coached?

In between 1 and 2 I would put Coe, Vigil, Bowerman, Bill Dellinger, Hudson, Wetmore, Vin Lananna, John McDonnell, and probably some more. In between 2 and 3 I would put everyone else including high school coaches.

Alan

Well... wrote:

All three of those guys have training techniques that are proven to work phenominally. .

Noakes has training techniques? What are they? By whom have they been proven to work phenomenally?

Extremely Anglocentric!

I search in the rankings and Peter Snell doesn´t figure in the 1000 all time best in the 800m or 1500m performers.

Peter Snell is the 749 mile all time best performer despite he did the mile WR.

Can you tell me why such a good training as the Lydiard one didn´t resist to the time. Does the other 748 mile runners are in Lydiard method too ?

huh? wrote:

Extremely Anglocentric!

Perhaps when the non-anglo coaches write training books it won't be.

beautiful Lydaird wrote:

I search in the rankings and Peter Snell doesn´t figure in the 1000 all time best in the 800m or 1500m performers.

Peter Snell is the 749 mile all time best performer despite he did the mile WR.

Can you tell me why such a good training as the Lydiard one didn´t resist to the time. Does the other 748 mile runners are in Lydiard method too ?

Take today's runners and have them race on a 385-yard-to-the-lap grass track with no pacemakers, and then let's see how fast they run.

Oh, and no EPO or steroids, either.

Are you suggesting Noakes and Daniels then?

beautiful Lydaird wrote:

I search in the rankings and Peter Snell doesn´t figure in the 1000 all time best in the 800m or 1500m performers.

Peter Snell is the 749 mile all time best performer despite he did the mile WR.

Can you tell me why such a good training as the Lydiard one didn´t resist to the time. Does the other 748 mile runners are in Lydiard method too ?

Hudson?

Cerutty, Igloi, Tabori, Gerschler ( doped Barthels), Elloit, Haikkola,Holmer of recent Canova and there are many others. Even Mann and the coach from Wis./LaCrosse

But Hudson, boy thats a stretch.

Thanks for the seemingly-wise advice.

I would be at 5.20 (or under) mile runner. solid sub6min miler, but horribly prone to injury (shin splints, weak glutes,hips,back,core).

Having said that, I did 3 half-marathons (1.32-1.37) and a marathon (4hrs, half injured) over 2 and a bit months before i was 20. That was probly my overtraining period before i got this proneness to injury. More recently, I did 2000m in 6.40.

ANYWAY, apologies for the life story; but I've decided a more structured approach to running, hence my uncertainty as to what literature to pick. Having read some posts, I would think Lydiard would be the more desirable with some flicking through the others.

Are Noakes, and Daniels possibly, more medical/technical/sciency?

beautiful Lydaird wrote:

I search in the rankings and Peter Snell doesn´t figure in the 1000 all time best in the 800m or 1500m performers.

Peter Snell is the 749 mile all time best performer despite he did the mile WR.

Can you tell me why such a good training as the Lydiard one didn´t resist to the time. Does the other 748 mile runners are in Lydiard method too ?

Snell's 800 m time from 1962 remains the fastest ever run over that distance on a grass track. It is also the oldest national record recognized by the IAAF for a standard track and field event.

well, shouldn't you be studying "human biology" instead of spending all your time on letsrun?

you spew crap all over this message board

finish your undergrad, run a few decent times, then come back and pretend you know everything....

chronological then? wrote:

Thanks for the seemingly-wise advice.

I would be at 5.20 (or under) mile runner. solid sub6min miler, but horribly prone to injury (shin splints, weak glutes,hips,back,core).

Having said that, I did 3 half-marathons (1.32-1.37) and a marathon (4hrs, half injured) over 2 and a bit months before i was 20. That was probly my overtraining period before i got this proneness to injury. More recently, I did 2000m in 6.40.

ANYWAY, apologies for the life story; but I've decided a more structured approach to running, hence my uncertainty as to what literature to pick. Having read some posts, I would think Lydiard would be the more desirable with some flicking through the others.

Are Noakes, and Daniels possibly, more medical/technical/sciency?

You need to get your injury/muscle imbalances problems fixed first rather than repeating the same cycle of problems. Definition of insanity is continuing to do the same thing and expecting a different result.

Read all of Lydiuard and Daniels then read again and ask your self which one makes more sense to you and is a better fit. Noakes has no training program that I am aware of and Lydiard, Daniels are time tested, especially Lydiard. But there are others, Kenny Moore has always felt for a runner that is easily injured Bowerman was the way to go.

.truth wrote:

[quote]beautiful Lydaird wrote:

Snell's 800 m time from 1962 remains the fastest ever run over that distance on a grass track. It is also the oldest national record recognized by the IAAF for a standard track and field event.

Congrats. But tyhat doesnt put hin on the top of the 764 others. What you say thats a guiness book of records. By the way hiow many runner did run on a grass track. Some 30 ?

jsquire wrote:

]Take today's runners and have them race on a 385-yard-to-the-lap grass track with no pacemakers, and then let's see how fast they run.

Oh, and no EPO or steroids, either.

Do you know what are the indoors 800m 1500m and mile best performances on a 200m track or the best 800m 1500m and mile Wchamps done on200m indoors with pacemakers ? Or do you think that indoor WC are win with pacemakers ?

You compare runners against their own era. Not against people from decades later unless you have an axe to grind.

Lydiard essentially stopped coaching by the late 70s and at that time athletes using his methods were still winning Olympic medals and appearing in the world rankings.

The Light wrote:

Are you suggesting Noakes and Daniels then?

]

I vote for Lydidanioakes. My second chioce goes for Arthur Noakes. My third for Jack Lydiard and my fourth for Tim Daniels. Each of them is best than Hudson and will make a honk run like a horse.