Hall and the American Record

Hwy 6 wrote:

The Tyson Gay and Kenyan analogy is good. Does that mean if Gay moved to Kenya, trained and lived there for 2 years, then his Kenyan national record would be justified?

KK lived and trained in NY long before anyone knew who he was, and way before he set any records of any sort. There are rules to becoming a US citizen and it takes time. If anything, I would say he takes that citizenship at least as seriously as many native born people do if not more so.

This is a silly discussion. There is a rule in place to define an American record. No there shouldn't be a double standard. The fact that Hall hasn't broken it yet does nothing to discredit his performance. It will just make it all the more special if and when he does.

Hall has an AR in the half marathon

Why is this question considered short-sighted, racist, or a dead issue? At which point should we end inquisitive thought that may be controversial and not unanimously agreed upon? Isn't this the purpose of the message board and other communities of dialogue? Personally, I think this issue is alive and well; it doesn't diminish Hall's performance one bit. I don't think there is nothing anyone can say from this day forward about Hall, no matter how much they dislike him, to diminish what he did this morning. Hall showed the world that a kid from mountain town USA actually can compete with the world's best. Hall gave the kid from backwoods small town and urban ghettos something that no person can ever overlook or take away--hope. I care about our neighbors overseas just as much as the next man, but I think in these dire times in 'our' house that we should begin looking within rather than outwards.

The question of Hall's performance as an American record carries implications of hope that surpasses citizenship. In fact, it highlights Hall's accomplishment, as not just an American citizen but as a young man who has developed/struggled within the American system from childhood failures into adult successes. The fact that Hall has overcome so much, believed in himself and his God, makes the issue so much more worthwhile to discuss in my opinion. This is not a conversation of patriotism or racism or xenophobia, as I'll be the first to admit that I may be one of the least patriotic people I know who is emotionally drained regarding race-relations in America. I simply think that these moments reminds some people (there appears to be some people who agree with me) that maybe our system should consider all variables associated with our "American" records. Once Lagat breaks Kennedy's 5k record, I guarantee some of you (me) will think about this in the back of your mind.

Seriously, people need to drop the racist cries. I agree with the OP and definitely know that if the current "AR holder" was white, born and raised in Ireland and lived here for a couple of years, I would feel the same way.

Hwy 6 wrote:

Hall showed the world that a kid from mountain town USA actually can compete with the world's best. Hall gave the kid from backwoods small town and urban ghettos something that no person can ever overlook or take away--hope.

You make the U.S. sound like a third-world country.

What exactly is a "third world" country? Maybe our home-grown kids could use a Hall to look up to like some of the other so-called "third world" countries. Last time I checked, we weren't exactly dominating distance running on the international level.

Isn't hope what Obama talks about? Is he referring to a third world country as well? Maybe he understands the power of positive influence that is often associated with hope and optimism; many (thankfully not all) of our US kids lack this.

I agree with you that Hall gives hope to American running. All I'm saying is that there are way more opportunities for American kids to do *anything* they want than in a country like Kenya where running is pretty much it.

What does Obama have to do with this? Other than the fact that he's part Kenyan and running for president, which you have to be born in the U.S. to do. If that's a qualification for being "American," then the same should apply to records (in my opinion). It has nothing to do with race.

The only reason where a person is born should be taken into account are when performances are looked at from a genetic point of view. From a genetic point of view, Wilson Kipketer will always be a Kenyan, and Khannouchi is North African. However, Khalid Khannouchi is the fastest American marathoner ever. How American you are has NOTHING to do with your genetics. What makes Hall more "American" then Khalid? The fact that he was born here? Went to college here? The fact that he is white? Our country has the greatest tradition of immigration of any country on this planet. It is sad that some are too narrowminded to see past a great runners obvious passion for this country because they are blinded by the color of his skin and relegious beliefs.

I don't think it's a racist thing. I think the average runner in the U.S. (who just so happens to be a white male) is tired of hearing about how African genetics for running are superior to ours. It's nice to see someone like Ryan Hall come along and give us hope that maybe a few of us have good distance running genetics as well, and that maybe we're capable of performing at the elite level too (if we train hard enough). I respect KK and his American records, but to me the hype and support behind RH to me this is more of a genetics issue than a racial one.

duro wrote:

I don't think it's a racist thing. I think the average runner in the U.S. (who just so happens to be a white male) is tired of hearing about how African genetics for running are superior to ours. It's nice to see someone like Ryan Hall come along and give us hope that maybe a few of us have good distance running genetics as well, and that maybe we're capable of performing at the elite level too (if we train hard enough). I respect KK and his American records, but to me the hype and support behind RH to me this is more of a genetics issue than a racial one.

You mean the average distance runner, I presume. The average (good) American sprinter is probably not a white male.

The funny thing is, it's the racists who've been arguing for African runners having superior genetics.

You're right: it's nice to see somebody like Ryan Hall come along. He doesn't waste a moment, it would seem, with negative thinking. He neither bemoans his genetic inheritance nor bemoans the fact that Kenyan guys seem to win all the race. He lets all that go.

Then he gets mocked, here, for his God-talk.

Luckily, he doesn't let any of it get to him.

He just trains well, offers his races as praise to the God he believes in, and keeps getting better.

There's a good lesson here for all who care to listen.

Perhaps records should be further classified...

American Citizen Records (KK, Lagat, Meb etc...)

and

American Born Records (Hall, Kennedy, etc...)

I agree. I respect any American citizen, no matter what the country of birth, and any time that American citizen runs. What's so hard about that?

What gets me is the short-sighted mentality of college coaches, who bring foreign athletes in to win conference meets NOW, impeding the limited developmental opportunities for American athletes, on the American dime, particularly in the case of public universities.

Possibly the underlying greater issue at hand, that may lead to some anymosity of the average American-born runner, was never put more succinctly from such a highly successful individual in collegiate sports, Mark Wetmore, Colorado University track and cross country head coach, in an interview:

Q: “You’re known as a recruiter of American athletes. What if you had a great foreign athlete walk into your office and tell you he wanted to run at Colorado?”

A: “I’d say that the price of tuition, room and board, books, and fees is $23,500 a year. I get contacts every week, every day. The way for the U.S. Olympic and World-level track and field to succeed is the development of our own athletes. I should say, through the development of the sons and daughters of American taxpayers.”

dude, you realize that america is built on foreigners. we all came from somewhere. dont be so ignorant to assume you are a pure american, when in fact your dad is probably german or something, and your mom and some irish blood or whatever. you get the picture. america is a melting pot. thats how it started and its not stopping. get used to it.

I have absolutely no problem with someone becoming American and then running in the WCs or Olympics. I was very happy when Lagat won double gold last year.

The issue to me is that when a guy is successful and comes to America later in their life it makes any national records seem a bit off. Lagat ran 3:26 before he became American.

Guys like Meb that came up through the U.S. H.S. system are totally legit in my eyes, but someone that has competed several times for a foreign state in international competition becoming a U.S. citizen just feels off to me.

That said, no AR will last forever, so it's really not that important in the long run. I think people should remember Lagat as a great competitor and a guy that loves the U.S. and has won international titles as a U.S. citizen. If Webb or someone else breaks records that he set it won't be such a big deal, since records are broken but medals last forever.

wow, that is amazing. do you know me? my mother immigrated ireland, and my father is german-irish, first generation. good call!

i realize america is a melting pot, i am a prodcut of this concept. i respect any american citizen as a true american. if that person runs fast, then he or she is a true american record-holder.

but the recruiting issue wetmore gets to is a different matter, that makes sense to me, and takes away elite-developmetal opportunities and scholarship money from a particular state resident who wants to run at his or her state school. i see it as one of those factors leading to the anymosity felt by some above.

No, not everything boils down to color. If a guy from England or Ireland or another "white place" had the American Record the same questions would come up. Also, the same reluctance to embrace his times as "American Records" would be there. That's for me atleast. It's not about color or religion or race, its about geography. Yeah, lets just call it racism, though. Rational thought is harder.

This post proves the Hitler Youth lives.

gee-whizz wrote:

Jeremy Wariner holds the true american record in the 400 aswell. Hall owns the true american record in the marathon. End of thread

Arabs are a race of Semitic people. Jews, Arabs, Druze are all Semitic, the descendants of one man, named Abraham. Semites are a blend of Caucasian and Sub-Saharan African peoples.

Following your logic any marks set in foreign countries should also be considered separately. American Born Records means a record born in American not a person born in America. Hall and Kennedy set records were NOT born in America, so they don't count.You also don't realize American includes Canada, Mexico and all of Central and South America. Typical American attitude to claim an entire continent as their own, and then discount everyone else. Your American Born Records is really "United States of America Born Records set Outside the USA"

tnf news wrote:

Perhaps records should be further classified...

American Citizen Records (KK, Lagat, Meb etc...)

and

American Born Records (Hall, Kennedy, etc...)