low vs high milage

They will run out of gas. Right now they're making all withdrawls but not making any deposits.

They're running off of their natural talent. It will run out.

there are a few possibilities here:

1. these local guys are young. young bodies can get away with running faster without the heavy mileage

2. these race distances are not long, comparatively speaking so 30 mpw is probably enough for them

3. quality sessions are key

and finally...

4. they may be blessed with good genes!

stop comparing yourself to them

perhaps you're better suited for longer distances that they can't handle

step up the intensity (not mileage) of your training and see how that works

You can get away with running low mileage, especially at the youner ages and be successful. ***BUT***, low mileage and intensity can only take you so far. You will not reach your true potential unless you do the necessary work (high mileage). This is a long process, over years. Talent and speed can only take you so far, even in the shorter races.

1500/3k guys need to put in the miles too. Even Coe and Snell, 800/1500 guys put in the miles (esp. Snell).

Stay postive, you are doing the right thing.

Studies suggest that low-volume, high intensity training during adolecence can damage the body's ability to store glyocogen, forver ruining them for the sport.

Examples are a dime a dozen. How many promising 800/1500/3000 high school kids has this country turned out through the years? And they went on to do what?

Michael Granville

800m

1993 1:51.03 HS Frosh

1994 1:48.98 HS Soph

1995 1:47.96 HS Junior

1996 1:46.45 HS Senior

1997 1:47.93 Col. Frosh

1998 1:47.63 Col. Soph

1999 1:48.27 Col. Junior

2000 1:50.97 Col. Senior

2001 NT (I couldn't find a time)

2002 1:54.xx(i)

it is interesting that you pointed out Granville as an example, I had never thought of it that way...

It is true that I can usually keep up or even run at a faster pace with this group of runners in a 5+ mile run for example, but this of course means nothing when the real races are 800-3000m on the track, does it not?

I can even remember we did a fast 40 min run a few weeks before a meet, I was up in the front of our group and pressing the pace the whole distance.. but in interval workouts like repeat 400s for example I get killed, and in the actual race, they have like half a minute on me in a 3k!

1999 High School

1600m

(y=converted from mile)

4:01.3y Andy Powell (Ames, North Easton, Ma)

4:03.36y Brendon Mahoney (Marist, Atlanta, Ga)

4:05.51y **Alan Webb (South Lakes, Reston, Va)

4:07.69y Tommy Bonn (Lockhart, Tx)

4:07.73y Dylan Welsh (Saratoga Springs, NY)

4:08.20y *Don Sage (York, Elmhurst, Il)

4:09.11 Rob Myers (Fairfield Union, Lancaster, Oh)

4:09.54y John Fraser (Hall, West Hartford, Ct)

4:09.73y *Jason Jabaut (Seton Catholic Central, Plattsburgh, NY)

4:09.83y *Ricky Brookshire (Watauga, Boone, NC)

4:09.88 Adam Tenforde (Hanford, Richland, Wa)

2000 High School

MILE

(actual times also given for converted 1500s/1600s)

4:00.29 ............ Donald Sage (York, Elmhurst, Il)

4:03.13+ ..... *Ryan Hall (B Bear, Big Bear City, Ca)

(3:45.12 for 1500)

4:03.33 ............ *Alan Webb (S Lakes, Reston, Va)

4:06.51 ................... Josh Spiker (Ventura, Ca)

4:06.97 .............. Ryan Bousquet (Esper, Anaheim)

4:07.14 .......... Noel Paulson (Cascade, Turner, Or)

4:07.39 ........... Mason Ward (Colerain, Cincinnati)

4:07.4+ ........... *Dathan Ritzenhein (Rockford, Mi)

(4:05.9 for 1600)

4:08.33 ....... *Nick Schneider (BSM, St Louis P, Mn)

4:08.41 ........... Ricky Brookshire (Wat, Boone, NC)

(10)

4:08.56 ................ *Bryan Dillon (Sterling, Co)

4:09.75 .......... Tristan Colangelo (Gloucester, Ma)

4:09.81 ...... **Bobby Lockhart (Han, Winchester, Va)

4:09.91+ ................... Eric Logsdon (Canby, Or)

(3:51.39 for 1500)

2001

MILE (3:53.43)

3:53.43 ........................ Alan Webb (S Lakes, Reston, Va)

4:00.52+ ..................... Ryan Hall (BB, Big Bear City, Ca)

(3:42.70 for 1500)

4:05.54 .................. John Jefferson (Atlant, Delray B, Fl)

4:07.25 .................. Sean Jefferson (Atlant, Delray B, Fl)

4:08.68 ..................... Michael Kiter (Shadle Pk, Spokane)

4:08.82 ............................ *Chris Lukezic (Auburn, Wa)

4:09.19 ...................... Dustin Bybee (Mtn View, Orem, Ut)

4:09.42 .................. Nick Schneider (BSM, St Louis Pk, Mn)

How many of these high school stars are still competing on that level, or have improved since high school? Not too many, I think.

There's no big mystery here, they can run these times ("Two of them run 8:40s/3:57 for 3000m/1500m and two of them run 1:54/1:50 for the 800m...") because the race distances are short and aerobic ability is not the overriding requirement.

In fact, if you look closer, you can see that the 8.40/3000m time is not that good for a 3.57/1500m runner. If he trained right, the guy could get up to sub-8.20, but he would have to do more significantly aerobic training.

This is not dissimilar to the work seb coe did, and he only ever raced 3000m (rarely) and shorter. He never seriously moved up to 5000m, claiming he did not have the background.

Stick these guys in races over longer distances and (while they might still do reasonably well), their performances will surely drop off in quality and they can often be beaten over 10k by guys whom they usually destroy at 1500m.

To go in a little more depth, they probably have high VO2max's and relatively low LT's. Since LT is not important over 800-3000m, (when you are racing at VO2max pace and above), they are not hampered by this at these race distances.

While agreeing with you that mileage is generally the way to go, make sure you are training yourself for the right race distance. All the mileage in the world will not make a good 1500-3000 runner if he/she does not add on the hills/VO2max/speedwork afterwards.

Where these guys might also suffer is in championships where they do not have the aerobic background to deal with heats, semis and final in a short period. But in a one-off, they can kick some serious butt (as you know).

So, there is no reason to believe these guys are stars, they might simply be better trained FOR THEIR CHOSEN EVENTS, than you are. Have a look at your training and see if you are getting the mix right.

Hadd wrote:

To go in a little more depth, they probably have high VO2max's and relatively low LT's. Since LT is not important over 800-3000m, (when you are racing at VO2max pace and above), they are not hampered by this at these race distances.

Not true, LT running velocity is the single most important performance predictor for every distance from 800m up. anaerobic capacity is important for the 800m as well, with VO2 having no statistical correlation to 800m times.

Dear a,

I can guarantee you that if we lactate test both a marathon runner and an 800m runner of equal ability that the marathon runner will have a faster running pace at the LT. What would you predict from this if we put them both in an 800m race?

This is true in some part...low mileage runners like Johnny Gray, Mark Everett, Paul Ereng were had good careers.

I believe if Granville could have left Cali and had a better career. Arkansas would have had him rolling. you have to be careful coach these type of athletes.

No, I don't think so. Granville was done in during high school. All that speed work and all those high school records and that's all she wrote.

Not necessarily. 800m runners will have much better lactate clearance, thus they will not hit their threshold at the same blood lactate concentration as the marathon runner. 800m runners don't do marathons because of fibre type, but I think that the best 800/1500m (Coe, Bucheror, to go longer, El G) types have higher LT running velocities than most marathon runners.

Of course, the other side of that is that they can produce an enormous amount of energy anaerobically, while presumably the marathoner can't.

We are not talking about who has lower lactate values at his/her threshold. We are discussing who will have a higher running velocity at his/her respective threshold.

But why take my word for it?

http://www.lactate.com/pitesbas.html

Go here and scroll down until you come to Typical Lactate Performance Curves

I quote:

"Who is faster, the sprinter or the marathoner? The sprinter is probably laughing at the question but the chart below shows that the marathoner has a much faster lactate threshold pace. This chart shows typical lactate performance curves for sprinters and marathoners. As you might guess, middle distance runners are in between. Notice that the longer the athlete's competitive distance the faster the pace at LT and the lower the lactate produced at LT. This does not mean the sprinter cannot run faster than the marathoner. For a hundred yards he/she certainly can. However, the pace a sprinter can keep up for any length of time is much slower than the marathoner's pace. Long distance runners tend to clear lactate very efficiently and usually have much lower lactate levels at threshold then other runners. Also notice the shape of the LPC. The marathoner has a less steep curve than the sprinter. We will discuss this again in the advanced testing concepts section. The slope of the curve reflects several factors that affect performance..."

The typical values of running velocity at LT given are: 3.4m/s for sprinters, 4.0m/s for middle-distance, and 4.75m/s for marathon runners (see graph).

Or you could always search on PubMed and read this:

Int J Sports Med 1984 Oct;5(5):255-61

Maximal and submaximal oxygen uptakes and blood lactate levels in elite male middle- and long-distance runners.

Svedenhag J, Sjodin B.

where it is noted that 5000-10000m runners were significantly faster at a blood lactate value of 4mM (at that time the OBLA point and the gold standard of its day) than 800-1500m runners.

I'll give you that, but again, but who's to say that the 800-1500m runners actually hit their LTs at 4mM? As I said in my previous post, they probably have better "clearance" of lactate, thus it takes a higher blood concentration (i.e. above 4mM) to reach the point where they start rapidly accumulating lactate.

Very interesting article, though.

"they (800-1500m runners) probably have better "clearance" of lactate, thus it takes a higher blood concentration (i.e. above 4mM) to reach the point where they start rapidly accumulating lactate."

Where this might (conceivably) be argued against the Svedenhag quote, it does nothing to refute the claim by Accusport on lactate.com.

If we are to believe this is more than your opinion, perhaps you could give one or two references that support this viewpoint.

Any published research conducted on actual runners that support your contention that 800m runners have faster LTRVs than marathon runners would also be interesting.

Runna its all about specefics, they will get away with low volumes for a while but, and this is a big but when they get to senior ranks aiming for sub 3.45 8 min 3k you need to be able to hammer out some pretty fast reps at 5k pace in your base phase and to become the complete middle distance runner you will require mileage but not mileage for mileage sake. Also some very specefic work in the gym it cant all be done on miles .Physioligists will tell you that running beyond a certain mileage is pointless at some stage you have to run them faster .

There's always more to be gained from mileage. Aerobic capasity maxes out at 70-75 mpw, but there's a ton be gained in strength.

THERE IS NO LOW VS HIGH.

THERE IS ONLY LOW + HIGH.

DO YOU GET WHAT I MEAN.

Susantika Jayasinghe, the 2000 olympic bronze medalist sprinter said she did a 6 mile jogging on sunday, few days before she did her PB before the olympic.

karangasem.

...just another druggie...