Twin Cities Marathon DQ's runners for headphones

silkysullivan wrote:

There is no safety issue with headphone use. I've never heard of any accident being caused because a runner used headphones.

This is a straw man used by the race organizers and their insurance companies to cover their butts in case a runner is hurt. They can always use the defense that the rules clearly state that no headphones were permitted, runner X used headphones in violation of the rules, therefore the organizers and/or insurance companies bear no responsibility.

When I pay an entry fee, I expect, at a minimum, for there to be some sort of traffic control. Where there is insufficient traffic control, the blame lies with the race organizers, not the runner who can reasonably expect such in exchange for his entry fee.

i tend to agree.

i have never heard of a case where a runner was injured at a race b/c he was wearing a headphone.

i actually think there would be much more danger for a runner doing his morning run with one than on a closed course with many others.

i never wear headphones, but think it ought to be a personal choice for the runner.

i also think the race director should have the right to decide, its his/her race and right. that said, that decision is also subject to criticism as well. that is my right.

we could eliminate even more risks if we made the runners tie a pillow to their bellies and one to their backs as well.

and we could eliminate all risks if there was no race at all.

in all seriousness, i think this is an attempt to eliminate a problem that does not exist. in just marathons last year, over 400,000 people ran them. how many were injured from ipods?

i have never heard of a person getting injured in a race from wearing a headphone. if you are aware of any please post a link to one. i would be interested in reading the story.

I actually think it's to protect those who use headphones....there have been plenty of times where they are trying to sing the song that's playing while they run and it makes me just want to beat the sh*t out of them.

flyinghighrunner wrote:

I actually think it's to protect those who use headphones....there have been plenty of times where they are trying to sing the song that's playing while they run and it makes me just want to beat the sh*t out of them.

if you are running way back with people who are moving slow enough to sing as they run, you have bigger issues than listening to a karaoke version of george michaels "i want you sex."

i suggest you increase your mileage and throw in a couple tempo runs. that should increase your speed to get away from the singing runners that bother you so.

silkysullivan wrote:

There is no safety issue with headphone use. I've never heard of any accident being caused because a runner used headphones.

Then you've painted yourself as ignorant as there have been articles in the media about such incidents.

First, TCM was not the first race to enforce the rule - Grandma's, up the road in Duluth, did that in June. And Army 10 Miler prohibited them even before the rule was passed by USATF.

Second, to address the safety issue: As a runner, I've had numerous instances of iPod-wearing runners cut in front of me w/o looking b/c they're zoned into they're music, or can't hear me shout "on your left" when I pass them. I'm sure I am not alone in this experience.

As a race director, it's hard enough to convey important pre-race information ("be sure to stay to the right side of the road, especially on that blind curve at 2 miles" etc.) to runners who are antsy and anxious to start; it's virtually impossible to those wearing headphones.

The day after Grandma's (which DQ'd about 3 dozen runners between the full & half) the RD showed me photos of ambulances coming onto the course and coming up on runners from behind to get to heat victims; it would have taken longer for runners to move out of the way if they were wearing headphones. If some guy goes from heat exhaustion to heat stroke due to that delay, wearing headphones is directly impacting his health and safety (and don't tell me that's an unreasonable example; I've seen runners wearing headphones who remained oblivious to an emergency vehicle siren/horn until someone else tapped them on the shoulder - a lot of these people have the volume turned up, in the words of Spinal Tap, "to 11.")

Bottom line, it's a good rule, and some of the bigger races like Boston, NY, Chi need to start enforcing it, and not worry about whether they'll lose a couple dozen runners who won't enter b/c "I can't run without my music!"

Its also a NCAA rule that headphones cant be used anwhere on the track or within the track in a NCAA meet, i know for sure D1, idk the others. But, in my four years running D1 ive never seen anyone DQed because they were warming up on he infield with a ipod on.

who cares, let the fat runners have their music

And let races survive without those "fat runners". Wanting music while running and entering and running in races can be mutually exclusive endeavors.

Cite the rule that you "know for sure".

Blah, blah, insurance, excuse, insurance, blah, blah, blah, oblivious, insurance, insurance, excuse, blah, blah, blah

The ignorance shown on threads like these is amazing.

First, I would not wear headphones in a race that specifically prohibited them but I have worn them in a couple races.

I do wear headphones and have been for years. I have never felt I was putting myself in any jeopardy because I set the level of music so I can hear everything going on around me. Just because someone has a pair of headphones on doesn't mean they can't hear anything else. How do you even know they are listening to music?

Listening to music has nothing to do with how good a runner you are. While a greater percentage of hobbyjoggers like to listen to music, many competitive runners listen also.

If runners shouldn't listen to music when they run, why does every big race have music blaring throughout the course?

Maybe if marathon was still considered a challenge, not something to write off of the list, people would be actually not bored there. Maybe try running like hell is on your heel and then you wouldn't even want to live, leave alone listening to the music?

Maybe when you experience the ultimate pain of endurance running, feeling lactic acid flow through your legs, salt cramps forming on your legs, and sweat burning up your eyes, maybe then running wouldn't be so boring to you and you wouldn't need headphones at least in a race?

PS. I just ran an 8 miler in headphones, hahaha.

sony walkman wrote:

Listening to music has nothing to do with how good a runner you are. While a greater percentage of hobbyjoggers like to listen to music, many competitive runners listen also.

true in workouts.

NOT true in races.

i don't think people should be wearing them in races. it just makes them less aware of their surroundings, regardless of whether it causes any kinds of injuries/accidents. however, i don't really care. if the slow people are less likely to enter races without their ipods, then let them listen.

Headphones can be dangerous (see below) ...and because more people are irresponsible about it than resonsible about it, the responsibility falls on the race to protect the people who do the right thing from those who don't.

if you donlt want to read to the end of this incident, here's the puinch line:

"Closing yourself into your own little world, it's a bad thing," he says. "Then everyone else has to watch out for you."

From "Newsday" newspaper of Long Island, NY, May 2005:

Peter Hawkins of Malverne was on his way to winning his 12th title in the wheelchair division of the May 1 race. The Long Island Marathon is an amateur event, but like many in the field, Hawkins - a former high school football player who lost the use of his legs in a car accident in 1981 - takes his competition seriously. He was moving along in his low-slung, aerodynamic racing chair at about 14 mph, pushing the wheels with all the force that his powerful arms and shoulders could generate.

On a rainy morning, Hawkins had led a pack of about 3,500 runners and walkers around the Mitchel Field area, then up and down part of the Wantagh Parkway and was now heading into Eisenhower Park for the last of the marathon's 26.2 miles. On the narrow road that winds through the park's golf course, he began to pass some of the back-of-the-pack participants in the 13.1-mile half marathon who were coming off a different course.

"I was yelling, 'Wheelchair coming on your left, move to your right,'" recalled Hawkins, 41. "It's safer for me to do that than to start weaving in and out."

One young woman, wearing a headset, didn't hear him. "I'm yelling and yelling, but she didn't hear me," Hawkins said. "So I have to go around her." But as Hawkins guided his chair to her right, "she must have seen the front wheel on her periphery and she jumped ... to the right."

Hawkins suddenly found himself in the indelicate - and potentially dangerous - position of having a woman straddling his chair. He couldn't reach the brakes, which are along the front shaft of his chair, so he grabbed the rear wheels with his gloved hands. The chair lurched to a stop, and the woman was able to regain her balance before falling. Both of them shaken, Hawkins began to extricate himself and continue when a male runner behind the woman called out to him, "Slow down" followed by an expletive. "Slow down?" Hawkins retorted. "It's a race!"

A verbal exchange ensued that continued at the finish line where Hawkins waited to confront the man. Things got heated enough that the two had to be separated by technical race director David Katz. Hawkins admits that waiting at the finish line to continue the debate was wrong. "I should have let it go," he said. But, "I was [angry]."

This was also not the first time Hawkins has collided with people oblivious to his presence because they were wearing headsets. "Closing yourself into your own little world, it's a bad thing," he says. "Then everyone else has to watch out for you."

Interesting points - and I also have only seen this as an issue when combined with wheelchair traffic that has somehow become mixed in with foot traffic. This has repeatedly been an issue at Marine Corps where the hills in the early portion of the race negate the starting advantage of the wheelchair participants. That being said, I have seen it be an issue with runners wearing headphones and without. So what is the real safety issue? What if instead of wearing headphones that runner were deaf or blind or both? Should they be allowed to compete?

Burger Boy wrote:

What if instead of wearing headphones that runner were deaf or blind or both? Should they be allowed to compete?

Can't speak for the deaf, but have you ever seen a blind runner without a guide runner (who presumably is not deaf)?

blind runners must have a guide.

being deaf is not something a person can help, while wearing headphones is. plus, deaf people are almost invariably more aware of their surrounding due to living their everyday lives without sound.

the obvious safety issue (since you asked) is that people wearing headphones in a race are purposefully shutting out their surroundings and it can be prevented.

not a huge deal though. the wheelchair racers should just bulldoze the fat bitches.

Joe M. thanks for the article. i have actually never seen one where someone was injured in a race where the cause was attributed to the ipod. i dont doubt it has happened, but i still think the reason this made it to the news is that it is so unusual. kind of a "man bites dog" v. "dog bites man" story.

i also agree it is the runners responsibility to be aware of his surroundings and not impede or endanger others.

all that said, i have seen plenty of cases where clueless runners are oblivious to others even when they are not wearing an ipod, so even with an ipod i think it can be a little tough to say for sure if that was the reason they did not hear or because they were just idiots. could be both.

to my way of thinking, this just is not a big issue. the incidents are clearly rare and notable by their lack of occurring on a regular basis.

as far as being a legal liability, i just do not see it. how could a runner be successful in a suit against a race if the reason the injury is caused is because the runner was unable to hear the danger b/c of something the runner did?

in most states, juries apportion percentages of fault to all parties, if the runners percentage of fault is bigger than the races, the runner gets nothing.

all that said, i still think it is the rd's call to make. its the rd's race.

ymmv

sony walkman wrote:

I set the level of music so I can hear everything going on around me.

100% bullcrap. Just STFU right now, you have zero credibility on this topic.

jim, which events have you been the rd for? i may have run a few of them (all without headphones).

i have also seen runners oblivious to the ambulance coming up from behind. since i have seen NON-headphone wearing runners no notice the er vehicle too this leads me to believe headphones are not the issue. if a runner does not hear a siren right behind them something else is going on with that runner - i just dont blame headphones for that. even if you have it set to 11, you can hear a siren/horn.

a significant problem with the rule is that it will be uniformly ignored. when you pass rules that the bulk of people ignore it causes a disrespect for not only that rule but other rules as well. dq a few runners and all that will happen is that you (and by that i mean the actual rd of the race) will get a reputation as a "jerk."

i suspect, right or wrong, the vast majority of those dq'd in twin cities were mad and think they were not doing anything wrong. i also suspect they think the rd is a jerk. i am sure twin cites and grandmas will survive. and there will be plenty of ipod wearing runners next year as well.

it might have a more noticeable effect on a race like the south shore half marathon, strider 20k where there is local competition and a runner can choose to run another race perceived to be "friendlier."

maybe i am wrong on this, but i am not troubled at all by people ignoring certain "rules."

Since Apple has done such a fantastic job in creating a group of individuals who cannot live without an iPod its only a matter of time before they begin to use it while @ work, driving their car (w/headphones), pre post-nuptial shutoff, etc.

how people run races like NYC and not take in the experience, rather worrying bout the course being "long" because their Garmin says otherwise while they weave all along 1st Ave or when they are going to hit their powersong is just a shame...I'd have no problem paying the same entry fees for much smaller events..

as an RD I get sick of the emails saying people need to use their iPod for their Nike+ challenges etc, I'm holding a race, not a communal run, the rules are out there and if you violate them I will DQ you...they are printed and for my/your safety and benefit...

but in a world where its never anyone's fault, Global Warming doesn't exist and you can sue for anything, the masses rebelling over this is par for the course...

I'd be fine holding a 10k where nearly everyone finished under 45:00