Arkansas?

What's happened, in my humble opinion is this:

The coaching world has caught up to good coaches like the Arkansas coach. As little as ten years ago, many more college coaches had no clue as to how to prepare athletes. The kids didn't know either.

Now, more and more coaches and more and more kids have solid insights into more than just the fundamentals of the distance running.

The web is the difference.

...as long as no one has responded, I may as well continue...

23 institutions are listed in the first 25 finishers. What's the message? The winning coaches are good coaches, but, increasingly, so are the losing coaches. There has developed a greater parity among the coaches (and athletes) as far as knowledge about how to handle matters.

I have not read the whole thread, just parts, but I have not seen this commented on. Arkansas has the 5th rated T&F recruiting class in the country this year (i.e., 2007). Not all of that is distance guys, of course, but JM has been interested in the whole team.

The boys had a bad day. Watch out in the spring.

"the ex hogs can go do their dog, i'm glad your ashamed to be a hog because of a race. you probably never got your degree from arkansas, but you did get a national champ ring so your okay with that"

-wrongo, lad. first, it is 5 rings that i have. secondly, i most certainly got my degree as most of the boys do that i ran with. for example, matt taylor went to medical school. there has also been an attorney to come out of my group. the intensity is not even close to the same around there as a whole (from what i hear from close sources). the bloke that talked about 34.XX 5 days a week is easily right- perhaps even on the slow side somedays. there were long runs where paul would drag us along at 5.20 pace for a 14 miler over hills larger than you will ever want to see. i think hanley came along with bunston and pushed it along even further on the old loops that have been run for literally 30 years. there were mile repeats out at the old golf course that would make your head hurt. i have an image burned into my head of richard cooper on all fours puking his guts out after one session- he went on to run 8.30 in the steeple not soon after. the point being, i appreciate your allegiance to the hogs, but you needn't come on here and spew ridiculous statements about "doing a dog", etc. you are obviously very young and haven't a clue about what arkansas used to represent, and the air of dominance that was associated with it at one time. and yes, 23rd place is an embarrassment.

Mate, this email is spot-on.

We could go on all day on the hellacious and mind-bending workouts that happened in Fayetteville, Arkansas, over the years.

The thing is, when the luck is a bit low, that's when we have dug deep in the past. A few years ago (indoors) when the DMR team was robbed of their victory (and 10 important team points), most championship teams would have packed their bags and gone home. Arkansas came back and won the meet with huge performances from guys like James Hatch (2nd in the 800m after being the last guy to get into the meet around 1:49).

We have a saying that when someone goes down, another man rises up to the occasion. These young guys went out conservative and faded...and just had no pride to be honest. I have had my fair share of bad races with the red and white. But to let 200 college runners beat me in a race--wow.

Another thing is that as part of the most dominating program in history, we don't like seeing Coach Mac go out like this. He deserves better. As others have pointed out, this group has talent. They don't have a Cragg, Lassiter, Wilson, etc. and maybe that's a signifcant factor here.

Furthemore, this group showed they simply do not have the Arkansas pride that has been around for 20+ years. A mediocre performance would have been 5 guys running 40th to about 90th place. This was an example of 7 guys giving up and letting their coach down.

I hope they can put their heads down and redeem themselves in track.

yo diggity

my old coach back in school ran for Arkansas, ive heard all of the stories and i've talked to some of the past and present arkansas runners. its a great tradition here, but dont you think that some of the blame for not running good should be placed upon the coach. i mean, we do it all the time in football.

How do you know that coach mac hasnt lost his touch?? a lot of his touch was gettin some top foreigners (nothing wrong with that) and those guys would pull everyone along.

welp, no foreigners or juco transfers now, lack of motivation from the coach, and athletes that havent produced what they are capable of....time to call it quits.

and yes...go do your dog!

I agree with "perspective". McDonnell hasn't lost anything - but the game has changed, and he hasn't changed with it. American distance running is getting a lot better and a lot deeper over the last 5 years or so. Think about it - for the most part McDonnell earned his reputation as a dominant coach by attracting foreign talent in a time when American distance running was at its lowest point. Now, things are different. American kids started reading about training on letsrun or dyestat and we are seeing the effects of that now. As long as McDonnell sticks to the same routine and principles that worked in previous decades, he will continue to fall further and further.

"my old coach back in school ran for Arkansas, ive heard all of the stories and i've talked to some of the past and present arkansas runners. its a great tradition here, but dont you think that some of the blame for not running good should be placed upon the coach. i mean, we do it all the time in football.

How do you know that coach mac hasnt lost his touch?? a lot of his touch was gettin some top foreigners (nothing wrong with that) and those guys would pull everyone along.

welp, no foreigners or juco transfers now, lack of motivation from the coach, and athletes that havent produced what they are capable of....time to call it quits."

****My, I hope that you saved the receipt from your college English classes! They ripped you off! Is that an Arkansas edumacashun that you's writin' with?

Yeah, I suppose that might be a good point. American distance running is on its way back up, and maybe now Oregon or Wiscounsin are more logical places for blue chippers to attend school. Plus, the average 18 year old now hadn't hit puberty in the days when Arkansas dominated more than any other school in history.

And granted, yes, the game has changed. I know a lot of coaches were text messaging their recruits until NCAA recently banned it. Can you imagine Coach Mac sending an SMS to a high school kid? John has a lot of integrity and has always tried to go after "good kids" who fit into the program and the team environment. Maybe fewer and fewer of those kids exist by his standards. I dunno. I know he's reaching the end of his great career and maybe he isn't as aggressive in recruiting--but look at the kids he still manages to get (Duncan Phillips, arguable the top runner in the country last year; the two twins from Cal, etc.)...these blokes are plenty good to compete with the likes of Iona and Oklahoma State (whom they beat).

And when I keep writing that it's the athlete's fault...I would never say that if they had strapped on a pair of nuts and got 7th or 8th or even 12th. But 23rd place...? They gave up. Please don't anyone try to say different. And when you don that red and white, you better not give up.

has arkansas landed any recruits yet?

Speaking of not having the pride that has been around for 20+ years, you can say the same thing about the women. They're self absorbed. No team unity and don't seem to give a crap about winning for "Arkansas." Only themselves.

I bet Harter wishes he had Kleinmann back to round 'em into shape. She wouldn't put up with this lack of toughness. (Although she sometimes went too far)

It used to really mean something when you wore that uniform. People targeted you when they say a razorback on the back of your jersey and thought it was a big deal to beat an Arkansas runner. Now it's just another Arkansas runner you expect to pass.

I believe all runners at Arkansas should feel a sense of obligation to protect that tradition and to feel that it's pretty special wearing that jersey. If you don't and you run there, please quit. You don't have what it takes.

But it's really just a sign of an over all lack of character being displayed across the board. It's just not at Arkansas. Oregon seems to have a lot of pride in bringing the tradition of that school back to fore. Stanford's women sure run that way, and Colorado's teams have pretty consistently tried to live up to the great cross tradition established at that school.

Perhaps this is the backside of having so much of the success dependant on foreign talent. US kids don't see it as a program that has anyone they really identify with, it's just "that school that has a bunch of foreigners on it." CO, WISC, and OR all have top US kids and now some tradition (remember tradition to a HS kid is 5-10 years.)

Former Razorbacks that run those 34: x 5. How did you run after college? Just curious?

Did it pound you into the ground and perhaps ruin good professional careers or did you guys dominate the pros the way you dominated the NCAA? The professionalism of the sport has grown. That group there is talented and probably more concerned with how they do individually after college rather than pounding out there legs at age 19-24 for “the uniform.”

My former squad ran sh.t too....Cant explain the mytery that is nationals. The boys went from finishing 9th to finishing 27th or something like that. Nationals is a funny race.

Arkansas is talented, no doubt, but the reality of nationals is this:

The race itself is unique in that you have roughly 200 people of roughly the same talent level, doing essentially the same workouts. The race is a crapshoot for alot of teams. Arkansas has not fallen they just had a shitter. Unless you are supremely talented above all other teams, you can finish 30th or 5th on any given day.

Yes those guys WERE talented in high school, but that catches up to you in college. Alot of teams have guys who were undertrained as young guys, and then develop in college. Arkansas is like any other team who just had a shyt day. Look at texas or pc.

This classic argument again?

I'll address each one.

1.

How well did I run after college? Good enough to get a contract and support a wife...but who cares? How many people get to run after college? Would you rather have a Cragg college experience or not at all? Think how many guys like Cragg go to a school like SMU and just never realize their potential and give up...? This isn't a knock, it's just a fact that not all of us can run after college. So what. Arkansas isn't promising every high school that they'll be a professional runner. They are promising a college degree and a chance to win National Championships.

2.

The Foreigner Myth

Yes, the Hogs have always used some foreigners to fill out the team. But look at the past and you'll see some great Americans:

- Daniel Lincoln (American Record Holder)

- Seneca Lassister (USATF Champ)

- Joe Falcon (USATF Champ)

- Ryan Wilson

- Brian Baker

- Rueben Reina (Olympian)

- Brandon Rock (Olympian)

- Stanley Redwine (Olympian)

Plus, you can talk all day about bit team guys like Price, Dailey, Travis, Schiefer, Begley, Sandford, Welsh, Teddy Mitchell (sorry, but he does deserve a bit of credit) and dozens more guys who ran sub 14:00 5k and sub 3:44 1500.

But yet instead of being remembered for these Americans that are developed, Arkansas gets billed as the team of foreign mercenaries...geez, half the guys over the years are Canadian. These guys are pretty much American anyway (i.e. Hood, Kerr, Bunston, Link, Kaley, etc.)...as if Canada has its own culture.

"Former Razorbacks that run those 34: x 5. How did you run after college? Just curious?"

-i think that is a great question. like the poster above me, i also was able to procure a professional contract and add a 3.37 to my resume. my best under john was 3.40. after 2 years post graduation on the gp II circuit, i decided to pursue a business career and have been lucky enough to have been very successful. that being said, i think that the real benefit from my 5 years with john was the determination, toughness, and "despite anything, in no way will i quit until i have conquered" attitude that john evoked on many of us. i think the lot of us will call him from time to time just to get an injection of that old fire. he was and is a truly inspirational and tough man.

No culture for Canada? I'm sure your former teamates would disagree with you.