What is a bandit?!?!

I think Don Malen is on drugs and is afraid of being tested, so he doesn't officially enter.

How do you justify banditing CHARITY races??!!????!!!

what about banditing cross country races? you don't have to block off roads and stuff for xc, so is it so wrong?

Yes--If someone set up the course. Their time is money. If you don't pay, you have stolen.

it is much harder to bandit a cross race.

There seems to be a fatal flaw in most of the "banditing is wrong" arguments. Just because a race director takes time to set up a course, or hires people to block streets, does not mean that if someone else benefits from these services (and has not paid for them) that that beneficiary has stolen something from the race director.

If I walk by a busker on the street, arguably I benefit from hearing his/her music (or seeing his/her act). However, I am under no obligation to pay to hear his/her music. This is true even if other people sign a contract and pay money to hear this person (at the same time and at the same place as me). Although I get to hear the music for free, and although playing the music has cost the busker money and time, I have not stolen anything from the busker.

One may argue that I have some moral duty to pay the same as others, but legally I would not be doing anything wrong.

The only way that I would be doing anything wrong would be if the busker had received a permit from some government authority, which had jurisdiction over me, that specified that all who hear the music must pay (or to make the analogy clear, that all who use the road during a race must pay). If at this point I did not pay, I would be in violation of the permit (not necessarily stealing, but that is semantics).

Therefore, the crux of the question of whether banditing is right or wrong is the nature of road racing permits. If they indeed specify that the race course is closed to anyone other than those that the race director authorises, then banditing is wrong. If the permit does not do so, then one cannot say that banditing is stealing (as considered in a legal context).

However, note that even if a permit does specify that no unauthorised persons may use the race course, this does not give the race director any authority to use force to remove bandits. I do not believe that a race director would not have the typical powers to deal with trespassers that one would have on one's own private property. Rather, the race director would have to rely on civil remedies after the fact to deal with bandits.

I suppose there may be situations where the police may act as agents of the state to enforce the terms of the permit, but this seems to be a legal grey area.

Unfortunately, I have no experience with road race permits so I cannot come to a conclusion as to the legalities of banditing.

Some also argue that bandits interfere with others that have paid a race fee and therefore bandits are "wrong". Bandits may be rude and inconsiderate, but interefereing with paying racers is not necessarily, legally, wrong.

There is no contract between a bandit and paying racers that the bandit will not run in the same area as the paying racers, therefore the bandit has not breached a contract with those that paid - in that sense the bandit has done nothing wrong.

There is likely no contract with the paying runners and the race director that states that there will be no bandits. Even if there was, the paying runners would have an action against the race director, not the bandit. Again, in this sense the bandit has done nothing wrong.

The only way a bandit does anything wrong would be if he/she physically prevents others from running, walking, etc. However, even in such a case, there would likely have to be some degree of malice exhibited by the bandit for a criminal or civil action. Accordingly, if the bandit merely runs the race like all the other runners, it would be hard to say that the bandit is legally wrong.

There is a slim possibility that if a bandit crosses the finish line, and it can be shown that by so doing the bandit caused the timing to be incorrect for others, that the bandit "tortiously interfered" with the contract between the race director and the paying runners. However, this is a civil action that again does not allow for physical assault of bandits. At most the bandit might be liable to either the race director, or all the paying runners that did not get what they paid for (i.e. a correct finish time for actual monetary damages. I suppose this could be quite high in a Boston of New York marathon type context, but in a local $10.00 race, would not be worth the plaintiffs' time.

Therefore, unless the permits specifically exclude all unauthorised runners, and as long as the bandits don't take any of the water, food, etc., and don't impede other runners, or screw up the timing. I would suggest that bandits are not doing anything legally wrong. That being said, each person will have their own opinion as to whether bandits are rude, inconsiderate, cheap, etc.

stickman wrote:

I do not believe that a race director would NOT have the typical powers to deal with trespassers that one would have on one's own private property. Rather, the race director would have to rely on civil remedies after the fact to deal with bandits.

Of course, I meant to write:

I do not believe that a race director WOULD HAVE the typical powers to deal with trespassers that one would have on one's own private property. Rather, the race director would have to rely on civil remedies after the fact to deal with bandits.

stickman,

You writing a term paper?

No one reads what you write when you write that much. So, you just wasted a lot of time. Bummer.

cRAzy wrote:

No one reads what you write when you write that much. So, you just wasted a lot of time. Bummer.

On the contrary cRAzy, it can be helpful to organize a critique one's thoughts by writing them down and looking for flaws in the reasoning. Even if no ones reads that post, it benefited me (and it really only took about 5 minutes - so no big waste of time).

As well, I would disagree that no one would read such a long post. Although I understand that it is easier for some to stick to simple, easily digestible, sound bites, many still prefer logically defensible reasoning to flavour of the minute, knee jerk responses.

Regards (although, I suspect you have not read this far),

Stickman

I read it all and agree with what you said.

'Don Malen...Don Malen, where have I seen that name?' I wondered as I started in on this thread. Ah....yes, he ran a 5 km in Novi, accompanied by Larry Barnett who used to bandit every race, last spring.

I read Larry the riot act about banditing a couple years ago and now, and this part irritates many, tries to get into races by offering a portion of the entry fee. Many let him in. At least he's ponying up some money these days. I'll avoid what would be a colorful discussion of his personality and other antics. I am not his favorite man at the races. Fine by me.

Anyway, if dukerdog says Don(nie) Malen bandited some races recently, he did and you gotta wonder why? Some have said he's run some good races in the past which means he paid for those. I don't know if Larry has influenced Don(nie) or not but he's wrong if he's banditing races and 'stickman' is wrong in every way w/his theories about bandits. Every rationale to justify banditing is lame, selfish and blind to ethics and laws.

B]scotth wrote:

...'stickman' is wrong in every way w/his theories about bandits. Every rationale to justify banditing is lame, selfish and blind to ethics and laws.[/quote]

I'm not sure I'm ready for a protracted email debate, but I am legitimately interested in how I am wrong in every way about banditing and blind to ethics and laws.

I haven't commented on the ethics of it - that is a personal decision. As for the arguments relating to the laws of banditing, I have agreed that it may be "illegal" depending on the wording of the permits and possible actions of the bandit. However, I think I have also shown that it may not be illegal - depending on certain factors. It seems that it is a contradiction in this case for me to be "wrong in every way", when I have presented two opposing possibilities (and yes for the keen-eyed, and quick witted, I accept that just because I am wrong on one, does not necessarily mean that I am right on the other, but I am not sure Scotth would make such a nuanced argument).

Nonetheless, I would be interested in your legal analysis of the banditing issue so that I could see where I went wrong.

As a tip, I think it is a mistake to allow one's personal views and gut instincts about whether or not something is "right" to cloud a rational consideration of whether or not something is legal.

bandits suck wrote:

it is much harder to bandit a cross race.

why?

I am a male butt bandit!

Hey I bandit races, buT I certainly do not mean to be stealing...I have no money. But I do pay when I have the oppurtunity. Where I live in Southern cali., there are so many races that cost an average of 25 bucks a month. Im not a jerk like Don malen and I would never do any harm to anyone, but I love the sport too much...I cant just sti there and not run because I have no money...But seriously folks...when I do have the money...for a couple of races every five weeks or so..I do pay...should I feel bad now because I didnt know it was stealling.?

but seriously though... what is a bandit?

Naw, stickman, I don't want to get into nuances. I'll make it simple for you: everybody else in the race including those staging the event have ponied up money to have the race take place. If you don't and you participate, you're stealing.

There are some legal precedents to consider: in one race, a bandit runner ended up being the target of a lawsuit filed by an angry driver and that dragged the race organization into the fray. Numerous are the situations that can develop at a race where legal lines would be broached by bandits.

I realize race fees are going up, up. Still, I ask you to consider that those attending the race and those putting it on have put up their money and w/out those things happening, there'd be no race.

If I got spat on by some prick bandit I wouldn't take that shit. I would have dropped his pussy ass right there and then. Following the beatin of Don Malen by me, I would run away so that he couldn't find out my name and sue me. Then who would be the bandit you pussy f***. Spitting on people is disrespectful.