KARA GOUCHER GETS BRONZE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good point, good question. I saw my Olympic dreams die years ago, sometime in college. I still enjoyed competing and wanted to find out just what I could milk out of my innate ability, however modest it might be. So I continued to train and compete. I was never jealous of those with greater ability only admiring, though I certainly did wonder about those who pissed their talent away. I've had the pleasure of meeting and knowing Olympic finalists and medalists. Unlike Frank Shorter, I don't know exactly where the line between doping record and clean record happens to lie. I don't think you can realistically consider any world record or consistent top performer today to be automatically above suspicion. I think we've seen it happen in a similar sport, cycling. If it's clear that basically all of the top riders at the Tour de France have been using, then what would keep top distance runners from doing the same? I don't know what I'd do if my talent would have carried me to the level where that question would not just come up but be persistently repeated with each time I was beat. I'd like to think I'd stay pure and be happy with what I could achieve through what is both natural and allowed, that I wouldn't sell my soul to get a medal and could be content with knowing I gave it my all and did it without taking improper shortcuts. Maybe that means I'm just not ambitious enough.

Sorry that this has to come up during Kara Goucher's time in the spotlight, it seems to be unfortunately inseparable from great performances anymore. I guess if I had a choice in the matter I'd rather that it be discussed here than just swept under the rug by the masses who don't want to even think about such things. I prefer an open forum and all the warts that come with it to a culture of censorship like can be found on the T&FN board.

A major problem with so many people on this board is that no superior performance is above suspician. I have been around long enough to know that athletes cheat. But, if anytime someone has a great race on the world stage it is suspicious, then you should not follow the sport. You are clearly not enjoying it.

I say, give them the benfit of the doubt, then when they are caught- ban them for life. Assume innocence until they are caught. Without that all sports are useless.

They are for entertainment. I was entertained by watching Goucher run that great race. I want to believe she did it with hard work and dedication to the task.

Someone once pointed out that if you watch the victory celebrations of the cheaters- they just don't look as happy. They take the win, are tested, get caught and are banned.

Goucher's true elation seemed to be the result of hard work. Like Kastor's tearful last 100 meters in the Athens Marathon.

runn wrote:

Someone once pointed out that if you watch the victory celebrations of the cheaters- they just don't look as happy. They take the win, are tested, get caught and are banned.

Goucher's true elation seemed to be the result of hard work. Like Kastor's tearful last 100 meters in the Athens Marathon.

I agree with the rest of your post, but please spare me this tripe. This board is full of people who think they're smart enough to tell if someone is doping just by looking at them, such as whether they look like they are suffering or how quickly they recover after finishing a race. Now you can tell a cheater from the way they celebrate? No, sorry, you can't.

If when you walk by Kara and Adam Goucher and they see you and they stop and say "hey, what's up" then I'll listen.

not that simple, pollyanna wrote:

RJ got popped at the '00 OT. She was told by USATF officials that she had to clear their testing before they would allow her to go overseas. Then there was the whole charade of RJ running records during indoors on US soil and then being completely off the competitive radar by the time the outdoor international championships came around.

But did you know that she tested positive at USAs in '95 and was told to get a cold?

But billy mills won gold. Douche BagGoucher is a good runner. She won her medal fare and square.But lets not pretend that she is even remotely close to the athletes that she beat today.15:08 PR is crap.. nobody with that PR 'deserves' a medal.How would you like it if some scrub got bronze and his PR was 10.3. It cheapens the championships.

6 years in a tight range, 4:11 - 4:16 - 5 seconds. Then improves on the fastest mark by 6+ seconds, coincidentally the same year she moved under Salazar's dark wing.

2006 4:05.14 Rieti 27 08 2006

2005 4:12.31 Lignano Sabbiadoro 17 07 2005

2004 4:16.48 Eugene, OR 19 06 2004

2003 4:11.17 Pírgos 27 07 2003

2000 4:12.15 Columbia, MO 21 05 2000

I truly believe that most of the naysayers here today, myself included, would be cheering for Kara, if she would have medaled without being associated with Salazar.

It seems that no one has addressed the issue of Dr. Stray-Gundersen being hired as a team physician - who contributed significantly to writing the testing protocols. There are lots of emotional pleas "I know the Gouchers" "She seems clean", etc. yet they associate with the likes of Salazar and Stray-Gundersen. Did the Gouchers introduce you to their doctor?

What if Goucher is in better than 15:08 shape right now? It's called improvement retard. Championships are not cheapened in any way if those with slower PRs win medals becuase guess what, when the gun goes off PRs doesn't mean a damn thing. The only thing that matters is who has trained harder and has the guts to do what it takes. Kara had those qualities, the other women did not. Get over it.

Fine, I was just pointing that out. This really comes from Cierpinski in the 76 Marathon. He was so unemotional, like it meant nothing to him to win. It was just an observation, made by someone else, that I was pointing out.

I do think that cheaters celebrate, too. I was just using it as an example becuase Goucher's elation looked so genuine.

FWIW, Stray-Gundersen is considered to know a thing or two about live high/train low philosophy. Could it be that he was retained for his expertise/experience in running hi/low training camps in the park city area, and not for helping to find loopholes in doping protocols? Just maybe?

why didn't the runners who have batter PRs just run faster?

see there is no real argument here.

not that simple, pollyanna wrote:

Perception is reality. Some people want to believe and others know better than to be snowed by appearances. Some think they're clever for going around squawking that absence of proof is proof of absence while others chuckle at such brazen naivete. Some of us saw Regina Jacobs's fall long before others did, too, though were dismissed as cynical, jealous, know-nothing losers by the ostrich-like fans of the world. It's safer to assume that nobody at that level is doing it clean than to assume that it's only a few who are dirty and that it's only (comparatively) unattractive Africans and Asians.

Um, there's a big difference between running a sub 4:00 1500m indoors at 40 years of age and running a 32:00 10k at the peak of your ability.

Surprise! wrote:

Um, there's a big difference between running a sub 4:00 1500m indoors at 40 years of age and running a 32:00 10k at the peak of your ability.

Who said there wasn't?

I was reading Layden's article in SI linked previously in this thread, and it brought up something that I tend to agree with, and have seen happen on a number of occasions.

"I told Kara, 'Heat is an equalizer,''' said Salazar. "You can beat a lot of people who, on paper, can run faster than you.''

All the talk of PED's aside, I think this is a good point to make in lieu of all the silly arguing about people she beat who have faster p.r.'s than her.

Good point and don't EPO users tend to avoid hot and humid conditions? Something about their blood being too thick.

Unless they use blood thinners

not a bad race wrote:

Mintzberg wrote:

It was great to see 4 white women coming in behind the 2 Africans. It feels like there has been a shift in dominance

It was great to see two black women coming in ahead of four white women. It feels like the Africans will always win 10,000 metre races.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Could someone please give me the background about Salazar and drugs? Has he tested positive or have his athletes tested positive? Did he get caught with something? What's the story?

gatorxc wrote:

why didn't the runners who have batter PRs just run faster?

Perhaps their PRs are much closer to the limits of their actual ability. You can only improve to a certain point, and Goucher had more room for improvement.

And for some of them, this just might not have been the day for them. *Shrug*