Isn't "Event Specificity" More Important Than "VO2max" And "LT" Zones And All That?

To me this seems to state that the body can use long runs as a stimulous to teach it how to burn fat. Alternating the threshold pace and MP pace on long runs may be a good way to do this by accelerating glycogen use to cause low glycogen levels, but not nessisarily depleted levels. This also allows you to get the benifets of the long run without having to run the entire 26 miles.

Threshold pace or a little slower seems to me like it would be the optimal pace to switch to. Any faster and you are going into more anaerobic than desired and much slower will not burn up as much glycogen. I suppose that the optimal speed and distance of these threshold pace surges would also depend on the total duration of the training session.

I also find this interesting to Noakes' Central Governer Model for fatigue. The body slows the use of glycogen and switches to fats during the run to keep from getting too low on glycogen.

Sooooo ... run long and run hard, and sometmes do both, when getting ready for a marathon. You can try to be more precise than this, but nobody really knows what comprises the exact right forrmula for a given runner.

Tell me something I didn't know.

OK something you did not know... I was not suggesting to run hard or long. I was making sence of the reasoning behind recent conversations in this thread. Hey thanks for your contribution though. And better luck next time.

"Alternating the threshold pace and MP pace on long runs may be a good way to do this"

Sounds like running hard and running long to me.

Point is, for all the inticate analysis and interesting exercise science here -- and there's been plenty of both -- it's still pretty tough to say exactly what training protocols are optimal.

All good and well but.... wrote:

Marathon lactate is 2.3

---------------------------------

Blood plasma lactate (average) relates to intensity of exercise, so a faster runner can, theoretically, run at a higher concentration than a slower one. A 2:10 marathoner might run a full millimole higher than a 4:20 marathoner.

Regards,

Tinman

Well said. I like to have marathoners also do 8 or so miles at threshold pace followed by another hour or so running easily, since, as you have stated that early threshold pace does a good job of using up glycogen and then you just run and probably get 22 or more miles worth of energy depletion out of a run that is several miles short of that distance. So it would seem desirable to have some long runs that cover long distances and other runs that aren't so long , but they stress the energy stores as if it were a longer run. Any way we can trick the body into accomplishing a desirable response is a good way to go I am sure.

What about intentionally restricting carbohydrate intake at points during the week so a runner could run in a depleted state without having to go for the full 22?

Skuj wrote:It reminds me that we train to race, and I would argue that training must build up to, then surround important race-specific sessions. I would spend many months as a Marathoner getting towards 32km+ runs with some goal MP sessions in there. That would be the peak phase of training, when those sessions occur. I'm not saying that these "specific sessions" must be done daily, or in all phases, but they must be the prime focus in training....training towards making thses sessions work.

Perhaps the surrounding stuff is "training to train", and the specific sessions I refer to are "training to race". Most training must be "training to train". ???

I don't think anyone is arguing that race specific sessions are not important, they are. Probably the most important of a marathoner's training in the final 8-12 weeks. But to ignore the other aspects of training at any point in the buildup would be (in my humble opinion) detrimental to your overall success as a marathon runner. Just as a 1500m would not focus solely on 1500m pace all the time, a marathoner should not focus solely on marathon pace. All energy systems are connected and help each other. As Tinman once put it, all energy lies on a continuum.

Actually, most marathoners are on half empty most days of training because a 20-miler will certainly reduce glycogen stores more than can be replenished over night for the next day's run. Limiting carbohydrates for a few days will really make yuo feel terrible, but maybe worth it just to feel how bad it is, but doing that also leaves you a little low in resistance to catching the dreaded mahogas and that you don't need

Coach Mook wrote:

Alternating the threshold pace and MP pace...

I know many who describe these paces as being different, but aren't they really the same thing? Perhaps it is a difference in semantics? If one considers threshold pace to be the point where the body starts to produce H+ faster than it can be completely buffered, isn't this the most desirable pace for a marathoner? Obviously too much acidity is not a good thing, so MP should not exceed threshold pace. But why can't MP be right at, or perhaps ever so slightly below, threshold pace? What am I missing here? Anyone?

wondering wrote:

Coach Mook wrote:

Alternating the threshold pace and MP pace...

I know many who describe these paces as being different, but aren't they really the same thing? Perhaps it is a difference in semantics? If one considers threshold pace to be the point where the body starts to produce H+ faster than it can be completely buffered, isn't this the most desirable pace for a marathoner? Obviously too much acidity is not a good thing, so MP should not exceed threshold pace. But why can't MP be right at, or perhaps ever so slightly below, threshold pace? What am I missing here? Anyone?

Threshold pace can be sustained for about an hour. So, obviously, it´s impossible to run a marathon at threshold pace.

Here is what you may be missing: The limiting factor of performance. I can't say 100% but it seems to me that you are thinking the cause that leads to fatigue in the marathon are these hydrogen ions that build up from lack of oxygen(I suppose it still could be if you run to fast too early). Although this may be true in some shorter events, the marathon is a different animal. Sure running just a little slower than threhold pace would be optimal if you had enough glycogen storage. However, in reality we don't have enough. Running at threshold pace will burn these glycogen stores up well before you get to the end of the marathon.

There is some basic Scientifics of what M Runner was saying.

There has been some good material posted by Pete about percentage of max heart rate attained by well trained marathoners in real-world race situations. Not a large sample group, but Pete's data suggests well trained runners can stay pretty close to threshold pace during a marathon.

I've pasted Pete's words in below (not that he starts by referencing a still-earlier thread:

(Pete) This was discussed a while back here:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=647701&page=0

The short answer is that average HR for the marathon in an aerobically well-trained runner will be about 88-90% HRmax. Note it won't stay constant at that HR, but will more probably rise gradually throughout, hit HRavg somewhere around the half and then keep climbing a little, although this may vary, especially if you run out of fuel (hit the wall), in which case it will go down, or if there is wind or hills, in which case it's likely to be erratic.

Here are some real live data for seven real runners as examples. Note, these data haven't been filtered to get rid of average HR out of the 88-90% range, these happen to be all the numbers I have. A couple of friends have told me their average HR was much lower than 88% of HRmax, but I don't have actual numbers for them to share.

Joe A:

HRmax - 184

HRavg for marathon - 161 (88% of HRmax)

Time - 3:01 (2:59 PR)

fast twitch muscle guy

Joe B:

HRmax - 182

2004 HRavg for marathon - 159 (87%)

Time - 2:48 (2:45 PR)

2005 HRavg for marathon – 161 (88.5%)

Time – 2:46:41

fast twitch

Joe C:

HRmax - 200

HRavg for marathon - 178 (89%)

Time - 2:42 (half minute PR)

slow twitch muscle guy

Joe D:

HRmax - 170

HRavg for marathon - 148 (87%)

Time - 3:31 (3:23 PR)

slow twitch

Joe E:

HRmax - 190

HRavg - 169 (89%)

time - 2:31 (previous PR 2:55, but HM PR 1:11)

Joe F:

HRmax - 185

HRav - 166 (89.7%)

2:57 (4 min PR)

Joe G:

HRmax - 182

HRav - 161 (88.5%)

3:08 (PR 2:59)

M runner,

LT and marathon pace are considered different by most. LT pace is closer to 15k-20k race pace- so its a little faster. Obviously the goal of a marathoner is to have their MP be as close as possible to their LT (and furthermore, to have their LT velocity to be as close to their V02max velocity as possible also).

Running at LT, will eventually take its toll on your fuel suppiles (you'll run out of glycogen) and too much lactate will start to accumulate along with the resulting hydrogen ions that create lactic acid. Mainly though, as Coach Mook says earlier, it is a matter of limiting factors. The leg muscles will protest and cramp up, you'll become dehydtrated and/or puke, you "hit" the wall, etc. Start a marathon at current LT pace and you will have to slow.

Now in remarks to an earlier post:

Yes, 2 by 5 miles at current 15k pace is a demanding session...I'd use it as a benchmark workout about 3 weeks before the marathon. I guess the pace could be more like 10 mile to half marathon race pace. And for the record, I've never coached anyone- so this is not a common workout that I've had/seen people do. It is like Hansons 2 by 6 miles at 5-10sec/mile faster than goal marathon race pace.

S. Canaday wrote:

M runner,

LT and marathon pace are considered different by most. LT pace is closer to 15k-20k race pace- so its a little faster. Obviously the goal of a marathoner is to have their MP be as close as possible to their LT (and furthermore, to have their LT velocity to be as close to their V02max velocity as possible also).

Running at LT, will eventually take its toll on your fuel suppiles (you'll run out of glycogen) and too much lactate will start to accumulate along with the resulting hydrogen ions that create lactic acid. Mainly though, as Coach Mook says earlier, it is a matter of limiting factors. The leg muscles will protest and cramp up, you'll become dehydtrated and/or puke, you "hit" the wall, etc. Start a marathon at current LT pace and you will have to slow.

I, too, have heard some suggest marathon pace is close to anaerobic threshold pace, but most tend to disagree. I'll claim ignorance about this as I am not a marathon runner, nor have I coached any marathoners.

I am curious as to what studies have shown as to how long glycolosis can take place at threshold pace. Can anyone enlighten me?

Coaches and athletes have different definations of what intensity a threshold run should be run at. Most I have read and talked with define it as the fastest pace that you can run at for an hour or so. Off the top of my head Lydiard and Daniels are two coaches that point the defination in this direction, correct me if i'm wrong.

Generally the common consences says that marathon pace should be run at 80-85% VO2max. Daniels says that VO2 max of a Threshold run should be 83 to 88%. Daneils stated in a previous post that "I think most people would consider threshold pace more than 9 sec per mile faster than marathon pace." Maybe Daniels can elaberate on this for us. It would seem that M and T paces would not be far away from each other if you use the percentages of VO2max that I have stated above. I guess is could be another reason why VO2max is not a great indication of marathon performace as well, and why Daniels came up with the vVO2max system.

I've seen the 80-85% of max heart rate recommendation too, but I this point I've dismissed it, because for myself and for Pete's runners, 85 to almost 90% of max seems like a better target.

(I've done VO2 max tests several times, but unless you have access to a lab and can do them every 6 months or so I think their value is nil.)

Soooo ... touching 90% of max heart rate is damn close to threshold for most well-trained runners, right? And many marathoners can get pretty close to that for an average during a race effort.

Therefore, can't we expect that marathon pace can be quite nearly threshold pace IF you're quite well prepared for a marathon?

S. Canaday wrote:

Mainly though, as Coach Mook says earlier, it is a matter of limiting factors. The leg muscles will protest and cramp up, you'll become dehydtrated and/or puke, you "hit" the wall, etc. Start a marathon at current LT pace and you will have to slow.

This is what I'm curious about.

I've read so much about lactic acid and glycogen; I know what it feels like when either of these factors limit me. When I'm high above LT for a long time, I eventually feel almost sick and my legs become literally incapable of going any faster. When my glycogen becomes depleted, I start getting dizzy and faster paces become extremely painful and eventually impossible.

Neither of these limiting factors seem to be what holds me back when running from 8k-30k. The kind of muscle fatigue that I experience doesn't feel like glycogen depletion or high lactic acid concentration, it feels like my legs are just beat up--they seem to be capable of doing less mechanical work.

What is the mechanism of this kind of fatigue and what is the best way of training to improve this limiting factor? My intuition and experience tells me that the best way to train for this is with very high mileage. I often think of runners in their late 20s, early 30s, who might have the same 2 mile time as a high school kid, yet the older runners train at double or even triple the volume of the younger runner. Of course, this isn't news to anyone. We all talk about young runners with "speed" who need to run miles to develop "strength" so they can convert their fast 2 miles into fast 10ks. However, when people talk about the physiological benefits of high mileage, they always talk about improving LT, economy, and fat utilization--none of which seem especially related to "strength."

It is said that threshold pace is the pace that can be maintained for about an hour but are we not trying to run on the knife edge, at the 'threshold' of overload both physiologically and psychologically when we are deep into the second half of the marathon?

Is the effort and physiology at mile 22 during the race any different than the final mile of a hammered 8 mile tempo run or the maniacal tempo interval workouts on Jtupper's ellite schedule: 5mi/4mi/3mi/2mi/1mi all at T pace with easy gaps of 1 to 5 minutes?