JK- Rationale for High mileage

I think you can't get bogged down in the details of the science. Running is an extremely empirical sport -- the results speak for themselves. I think its safe to say the best distance runners run heavy mileage. Period. Its not like Arthur Lydiard pulled it out of the air, or something.

Here is the mileage for Greg Meyer in 1983 for the months up to the Boston Marathon.

January

103-79-97-102

February

79-74-72-88

March

132-131-135-110

April

113-107-72-60, including the marathon

He ran 2:09.00. All the training was done right in Massachusetts, not in Gunnison or Boulder or the Kenyan Rift Valley.

Quote :

"Running 25-30% at or above LT pace is ridiculous

unless you are running really low mileage."

I think and know you are wrong. I have done that many time, in back to back weeks of 130 miles. At altitude. That gives you 40-50 miles at or above LT pace. And I have seen Kenyans do so all through the winter down in Eldoret. It is the difference between world class and an average runner. I have also talked to Alex Stanton, the coach of Paula Radcliffe, from his home in Bedford. Same thing there.

Marius Bakken

http://www.mariusbakken.com

Yes, that is a quote from RWTB, but I think it applies to the overall year. You will note in my post that I said "in the 20 weeks leading up to the competition period." That is an average between the 3rd base period, highest of the base periods in both volume AND intensity (p. 35) and the pre-comp phase, for which Benson and Ray reccommend ***30-40%*** of weekly mileage at/above LT (Fig 9-3, p.55). Thus, someone training for the 5k within their ideal volume guidelines is going to be doing 19.8-32 miles per week above LT (volume guideline between 3300-4000 miles for a 50 week year). Everything cited here is in the 2nd edition.

But I also agree that you have to look empirically-- look at the Kenyans. Richard Chelimo, former WR holder in the 10k, said "Be sure not to do more than one hard session PER DAY, otherwise you will break your body down." That is the difference between a WR holder and most others.

Quote :

"I think and know you are wrong. I have done that many time, in back to back weeks of 130 miles. At altitude. That gives you 40-50 miles at or above LT pace. And I have seen Kenyans do so all through the winter down in Eldoret. It is the difference between world class and an average runner. I have also talked to Alex Stanton, the coach of Paula Radcliffe, from his home in Bedford. Same thing there.

Marius Bakken"

Marius,

You are a runner that I greatly admire and respect.

I will be the first to admit that you know much better

than I what it really means to do that quantity of

intensity in conjuction with high volume - I retract

my earlier comments.

I do think that the ability to run 130 mile weeks with more

than 30% at or above LT pace is something that requires a

degree of experience and durability that the typical

runner does not possess. But as you point out, this is

perhaps the difference between the world-class athlete

and the average athelete.[quote]Marius Bakken wrote:

So do you advocate LT pace training during your base phase? How about late in the base phase? I am currently building a 24-week base (straight mileage, no LT), and am considering keeping up the high volume and adding in some LT work for several weeks after that. Those extra weeks would be added in between the end of my true base, and the point at which I would like to start doing speedwork. What do you think? I am just thinking that I will try to stay near my max mileage during those weeks, and really turn the concentration from straight mileage to adding in one or two solid tempo efforts per week. Think that would be a good idea? Of course after that I would move into new phases, which for me includes tempos and the introduction of track work (400s, 1200s etc).

According to this article, Noakes 2:08 marathoners group

are running 50 to 60 miles a week with 36% or 20 miles at

a heartrate ABOVE 87% of maximum heartrate.

Lance Armstrong's Pr Guy stated Lance was doing his LT

work at 87% of maximum heartrate.

Does anyone know what % of maximum heartrate Paula is

hitting in her supposedly daily LT work?

Slightly above LT pace is easier than you think,

and it gets easier the more fit you become.(even though the pace may increase)

Quote

hitting in her supposedly daily LT work?>According to an article in Athletics Weekly two years ago, her maximum HR was high 190s. And it said that she did the LT work at 175-180, with one longer (1 hr 30 min) in the high 160s. Plus quite a bit of work/hard repeats above the LT. She definately trains like she races. Marius Bakkenhttp://www.mariusbakken.com

LT pace is Lactid Threshold pace, supposedly the pace you can hold in a 10 mile race am I correct? So if I estimate I have 55:30 (approx. 5:38/mile) 10mile ability does this mean I should be running everyday for a few miles at 5:38 per mile pace?

and for the base phase of training is LT training important? Or isn't it strictly your milage which takes presidence? I cannot see someone building a base with simply long runs while adding in daily LT sessions.

Slightly above LT pace could be close to marathon pace for a lot of guys. You could run part of your run at that pace pretty much every day.

Alan

I wouldn't hit that zone (or higher) more than three times a week.

I've got a few questions - first, how is everyone determining their individual lactate threshold and the velocity associated with the threshold? Through blood samples during an incremental treadmill test or through some non-invasive estimation method. Second, what is the rationale for doing LT training (from what you know or what you've heard)? It is my understanding this physiological parameter is the most important with regard to performance in endurance events, however, to my knowledge there is no scientific evidence indicating that training at LT or above LT actually improves lactate threshold. Certainly, science isn't always capable of finding eveything, but it strikes me as odd this hasn't been previously reported, yet LT training is such a fundamental aspect of the training program. Anyways, some feedback (especially references or sources) would be appreciated.

The evidence is pecuniary not scientific.

Lactate threshold can be determined by an athlete's heart rate (usually 85% of MHR, I believe) or more generally through precieved effort. It is a pace of discomfort but that can be sustained for significant periods of time/distance (i.e., 6-10 miles or 10-16k are common training volumes at LT pace).

Lactate threshold is the pace where burning oxygen is no longer enough to create the energy necessary to maintain the given pace. The body begins to burn sugar, creating lactic acid as a byproduct. Since the acid carries with it H+ ions, the presence of acid begins to restrict the muscles ability to contract and relax, and is usually experienced in that ever so common "burning" sensation in the muscles.

Lactate threshold training works under the premise that an athlete can teach their body to work more efficiently and process lactic acid better, and thereby "raise" their lactate threshold. For example:

An athlete has a given lactate threshold pace of 6:00min/mile (found through training as a painful but sustainable pace, and also found through charts and tables such as are available in Run With the Best). Start the volume low, and the rest high. 4x1200m @ 4:30 w/ 1 min rest. Repeat for the next week. The next week, 2x1200m@ 4:30, 60 sec rest and then 1x2400m @ 9:00. Repeat the next week. The week after, 2x2400m @ 9:00 w/ 1 min rest. The next week, 3x2400m @ 9:00 w/ 1 min rest. The next week, 1200m @ 4:30, 60 sec rest, 3x2400m @ 9:00 w/ 60 sec rst, then 1200m @ 4:30. Next week, 4x2400m @ 9:00 w/ 60 sec rest. Then 3x2400m @ 9:00 and 1x3600m@ 13:30, and so on and so on until the athlete can run 6 or 7 miles at that pace. Then, drop him/her to 5:40/mi or 4:15/1200m, and repeat. You've now raised this athlete's lactate threshold.

I still do not understand... Like I said earlier if an athlete is capable of say 55:30 for 10 miles then would their LT pace be 5:38 per mile?

and how much training and what types of training should be done at this intensity?

We always did a tempo workout pretty much every week throughout the season when I was in college.

Early in the season, the workout would be something like 10 mins-9 mins-8 mins @ tempo pace, with 1 min rest between each. Later in the season we would move to something like 20 mins continuous at tempo pace.

We always went 25-30 (shit, maybe it was 20-25...I can\'t remember) seconds per mile slower than our 5k race pace on tempo workouts. So, if I could run a 5k at 5:20 pace, I did my tempos at 5:45 pace.

We never referenced 10 mile times, although I think that makes sense, b/c the effort never seemed overly hard (unless we ran harder than we were supposed to).

Don\'t know about amounts, but I think we did up to 10% of weekly mileage in these workouts. I think this all is pretty typical.

If your maximum heart rate is 174 and your minimum is 44, then your heart rate reserve is 130 and your 85% heart rate is 155.

How much training you can do at that rate depends on how fit you are.

That article doesn't say anything about Noakes's runners doing 50-60 mpw. It asks a rhetorical question, which may not have any factual basis, and then has Noakes saying "I tell my runners to do as much as they can on as little training as possible." That is not equal to Noakes saying "I tell my 2:08 marathoners to do 50-60 mpw". This 50-60 mpw 2:08 marathoner does not exist. That kind of intensity does not suit a marathoner from a physiological standpoint. That is the training of a miler- which has very different needs from a marathoner. As for why Geb can do insanely fast speedworkouts and races on 120 mpw while others can't- that was a stupid question. In that case, you have one of the most perfect physical specimens possible and are comparing him to mildly talented runners who do the same mileage. Yes, aerobic development does run out at 75 mpw, but then why would anyone ever run more than that? Because running is more than just aerobic capacity.

If an athlete can 55:30 for 10 miles then their lactate threshold is probably around 5:33/mi.

If it was a training run done at an uncomfortable yet sustainable pace, then that was a lactate threshold workout, and a very good one.

If it was a race, then their LT pace is going to be very close to that still, just a little slower.

When the distance starts to get out that far in range, most of it is going to be run in lactate threshold.

Quality work, lactate threshold and above, GENERALY should be around 20-25% of the week's mileage, and not more than 30%. LT work will generally come in 2-3 workouts per week. For example: 5x 1.5mi @ LT pace on Tues.; 20x200m @ goal 1500m pace with rests of 90 sec for 10, 75 sec for 7, and 60 sec rest for 2 on Thurs.; and a steady-pace uphill run, which can be run at LT by the "feel" of difficulty.