Arcadia & Penn

Because hosting one huge meet per year isn't even close to enough to attract the very top talents to attend those schools, nor should it.

Well, UPenn is an Ivy League school with no scholarships (unlike, say Stanford or Oregon.)

And Penn has traditionally been known for other events than distance runners - good throwers and multi-event guys. (Center city philadelphia is a tough place to be if you're a distance runner.)

Penn has had three good 800m runners these past few years.

Robin Martin (1998) 3rd at NCAA 1:47.1

Sam Burley (2003) NCAA Champion 1:45.39

Courtney Jaworski (2005) 7th at NCAA 1:46.7

Persnickity Persimmon wrote:

Because hosting one huge meet per year isn't even close to enough to attract the very top talents to attend those schools, nor should it.

Arcadia is a public high school I think. You don't need to "attract the very top talents", you get who lives in the district, right? I would think they would field a good team given the obvious knowledge and passion for the sport at in the administration, and be able to develop some talents. No?

The combination of Penn's academic reputation and the expertise and interest required to sustain that meet should carry over some into day to day recruiting and coaching. Dartmouth has had pretty good teams. They are Ivy League, no? Brown and Princeton have had some good runners over the years. They are Ivy League, no?

Any other explanations?

The trick to the Penn Relays is that they interleave the Jamaican h.s. races with the college races. Penn Relays is bascially the "Jamaican High School Nationals" with college "filler" races. It's the Jamaican immigrants versus the Jamaican islanders, and the Jamaicans in the stands go apeshit. By the time the nite distance carnival starts, the stands at Penn are nearly empty. Only the college distance coaches, and runners not in the race, are in the stands. Arcadia's trick is that it's early in the season. The preps and h.s. coaches eargerly wait all year to visit Los Angeles, the Track & Field Capitol of the World, plus it's springtime. The preps want to scope out Southern California colleges and universities for scholarships, and the h.s. coaches seek out that "dream job" and/or next career opportunity. Mt. Sac's trick is that everyone on the team gets to run, throw, or jump. If they can't qualify for Mt. Sac, they get into the overflow heats at Long Beach State, Pomona College, or earlier in the week they will fit you into a heat of the multis at Azusa Pacific. Consequently, everyone on the team gets a time/mark/height, gets to hangout together, and gets to have fun together. The fans at Mt. Sac are pretty dismal in comparison to Penn and Arcadia. However, Mt. Sac is the largest relays in the world.

Penn Alum wrote:

Penn has had three good 800m runners these past few years.

Robin Martin (1998) 3rd at NCAA 1:47.1

Sam Burley (2003) NCAA Champion 1:45.39

Courtney Jaworski (2005) 7th at NCAA 1:46.7

"Good"? I would call them outstanding. Thanks for the data. So, they do have a pretty good program.

Interesting thoughts. But the question isn't why are these meets good. The question is why aren't the teams at the school's that put these meets on, more competitive?

Turn's out Penn's 800 guys are some of the best over the last few years. I didn't know that.

Still not sure about Arcadia, and why their program isn't more competitive.

Yawnerrrrr wrote:

Interesting thoughts. But the question isn't why are these meets good. The question is why aren't the teams at the school's that put these meets on, more competitive?

Well, technically, I don't think Penn t&f has much to do with the putting on of the Penn Relays. There's a dedicated race director, hordes of volunteers. I think the only thing the track team has to do is cede their facility for a week.

Ah. Thanks. What a trip.

Do you know if the Penn Relays makes a profit?

Any idea where the revenue from the Penn Relays goes? Does any of it go into the Penn Track team's yearly budget?

Yawnerrrrr wrote:

The combination of Penn's academic reputation and the expertise and interest required to sustain that meet should carry over some into day to day recruiting and coaching. Dartmouth has had pretty good teams. They are Ivy League, no? Brown and Princeton have had some good runners over the years. They are Ivy League, no?

Brown hasn't had anyone of note in about the last 10 years, and their studs at that time were all foreigners.

Dartmouth and Princeton (and Cornell for that matter) are suburban campuses with lots of places to run. Like I said above, it's tough to be a distance runner in center city philly.

And even taking all that into account, the teams of Princeton and Dartmouth don't have a 9:40 DMR every year. Some years, but not every year. The Ivy League just isn't a distance powerhouse conference.

Finally, like I said above, Penn doesn't have history of great distance runners. When Nathan Taylor was the coach in the 80s and 90s, they had great sprinters, field events, and multis. (now he's at cornell, and they've got a similar program there - apologies to rojo, but cornell doesn't win ivy titles on the backs of their 5k/10k runners.) They've continued to have success in the field (a guy placed real high in the JAV at NCAA a couple of years ago), and mutlis are still pretty good too.

Coaches find it easier to compete at a neutral site. If a team commits to a quad meet for instance, then you more than often have to commit back to that school, in some form, reciprocate. Like Kenya and Ethiopia was about to erupt into a feud when Bekele annouced at Fukuoka 2006 that he was retiring from cross competition. If Bekele snubbed Mombasa 2007, Kenya would have refused to show up to any world class race in Ethiopia for the next 100 years. Bekele was informed of the politics/diplomacy, ultimately ran in Mombasa, and adverted a huge tiff between the neighboring countries. Modesto, Mt Sac, Penn, are good neutral sites. If your team commits, those schools don't "expect" you to commit back. Stanford is the exception, they've had great teams, yet have a premier early fall cross race, early spring outdoor track relay, elite time trials, and used to have an IAAF GP meet, etc. The weather is great at Stanford, and SFO/SJC/OAK are easy to fly to from anywhere in the U.S.

Thanks for the insight, Chris. You seem to have a really interesting perspective on this.

I've spent some time in Philly, and the distance running up by the boathouses on the river was decent, but all pavement I guess. I never did find a trail. Plus, I guess the boat house area is pretty far from the UPenn.

Where is Villanova located? Are they in Philly? They have good distance runners, and they must have somewhere to run. But, they can give out scholarships, which I know makes a big difference. Maybe they are in a nicer suburb or something too.

Anyway, it just *seems* like the Relays would make some decent money. And it just seems like you could build a perennially decent program off that revenue, community support, and momentum.

Before I start a tiff of our own here, let me add, Texas and Kansas in addition to Stanford have a great relays each fall. So perhaps your observation is not correct. You see Texas, Stanford, and Kansas have had great success recently, and have also had great relays/open meets.

The boathouse is actually really close to Penn. They run a lot in Fairmont Park.

Yawnerrrrr wrote:

Where is Villanova located? Are they in Philly? They have good distance runners, and they must have somewhere to run. But, they can give out scholarships, which I know makes a big difference. Maybe they are in a nicer suburb or something too.

'Nova is out in the suburbs (out on the "Main Line"). Lots of places to run out there. Don't know if they ('nova) still run there, but Haverford Collegeis nearby with an Arboretum that is a great place to run.

Arcadia has one of the best high school cross teams in the nation, in 2005, they finished 3rd in D1 in a thrilling underdog victory, and finished a very respectable 7th this year in the stiffest competition California has ever fielded. they are lead by One of the best coaches in the state, Jim O'brian, and he has developed guys that look nothing like runners into star athletes. He had 5 guys go sub 16 at Mt.Sac at CIF finals, and his two stars are Andrew Plajivan, 9.12, and sophmore sensation Renaud Poizat, 15.19 at Mt sac, and competed at Nike outdoor nationals for freshmen in the 1600 also. Arcadia has a great distance program, and it was really fun to have the oppurtunity to get to know them through one of their Alumni, and they even let me have an on-field pass at the invitational! Watch for Poizat, he will be a superstar, he is french, and trains in the alps of all places in the summer, he is a man to watch for nest season. As for Penn, dont know about them, but Arcadia has a proud distance program, and its too bad O'brian has no say in the track program as well, or I suspect they would be great also. Arcadia, also has one of the best public education systems in the state also. (many asians reside thier) Hope this answers the Arcadia portion?

And yea, we probably have one of the most unathletic teams out there lol. Just wondering who you are speed goggles?

took splits for Arcadia at CIF Finals this past cross season, if that rings a bell, just sharing the love!

honkforcookies wrote:

http://www.dyestatcal.com/news/xc2006/September/COW/1016JObrien.htm

And yea, we probably have one of the most unathletic teams out there lol. Just wondering who you are speed goggles?