How much recovery do you take for long intervals, say 1600m? I know Lydiard says in his books that you run one, jog one, but this seems like an awful long amount of rest to take.
So at what distance interval do you actually start using for recovery too, and what what distance should you recover for the longer intervals.
He liked to have the same distance recovery upto, say, 800m repeats. Beyond that, it was more or less "until you recover adeuqately to do another one fast enough." I tend to do it like "5-minute max" for recovery. I just did 3X1200m with a girl I'm coaching. We had about 800~900m for recovery (I don't know the exact distance because it was just blocks around the downtown Wayzata). I just didn't think it was necessary to go all the way around for recovery. On the other hand, one time we were doing another repeats around inside the Metro Dome; run one lap fast, jog one lap. There were times when I noticed she didn't seem to have recovered enough, I had her do extra straight for recovery (and back). Ideally, I guess, if you can afford to check your HR, it should be down below 120bpm. I tend to start the fast section after my HR comes down to 130~140 (at the moment) and I seem to be able to do another fast section just as well. Of course, I'm not as fast as 20 years ago...
Lydiard Question wrote:
How much recovery do you take for long intervals, say 1600m? I know Lydiard says in his books that you run one, jog one, but this seems like an awful long amount of rest to take.
So at what distance interval do you actually start using for recovery too, and what what distance should you recover for the longer intervals.
Nobby makes a good point, just make sure you realize this will be FASTER than your race pace, make sure you trey to keep the same pace or faster with pretty much equal length recoveries from what you started with.
This is what modern coaches (those who have a clue) would call maximum Aerobic or Anaerobic power, which is different from Aerobic/Anaerobic Power ENDURANCE (typical 10x400 w/60s rest or 5xmile w/.75-equal rest), which is about race pace to slightly slower. It helps make race pace work easy mentally and physically.
The Max Power is great and can be done all year (albeit varying volumes), much like Max Strength training. Aerobic/Anaerobic Power Endurance training only has benifit mainly in peaking situations, and only for 4-6 weeks MAX WITH UNLOADING WEEKS EVERY 2-3 WEEKS.
A good way to do this is knock out some Max Power stuff after the long hard tempo runs/repeats for AS LONG AS POSSIBLE. Then start adding more power reps and less tempo for a few 3-4 week blocks. Then do once a week off power training, alternating between aerobic and anaerobic. Two 3 week cycles (2 weeks hard and an unload week with a lower volume of harder and/or longer reps at same pace) will work pretty good.
Your next phase would be a transition in a mixture (ie, ladder workouts) or shorter recoveries, depending on how long you have.
Then about 6 weeks before peak knock out the slower work with shorter rest for 4 weeks, then back off and do some time trialish/long faster stuff in low volume with plenty of rest.
Cycle, Taper, Peak, Dominate.
If you notice this sounds similar to my "name" would have done, only thing is he did it with the almost equivalent of an elementary school education. Now as we have learned more we have adapted a little (so did Arthur). Walker's training was similar.
Lydiard:
I'm getting to like you more and more (thanks, by the way, for all the strength training info you have sent to me).
Interestingly, since you mentioned John Walker, Walker stated in the training video made by his buddy, Dick Quax, that he doesn't really think "speed training" is that important but he believes "interval training" is critical. What he means is that he believes doing repeats like 2km around Auckland Domain starting the end of his build-up. Whatever the terms might be, Lydiard's training (Arthur's, that is) had all elements included. He may not have done it in a form of "intervals" or "repeats"; but his runners did 10-miler in 55 minutes. And then there was 800m hill "bounding"....
For our Lydiard presentation Part II, I've been putting lots of sample training schedules of Viren, Walker, Quax, Lorraine Moller and some others. It's amazing how similar they are. In the final week(s) leading up to THE race, they would do things like 3~5 X 200m fast. Or 600m time trial...things like that. It absolutely horrifies me to read some thread where a young high school girl is doing 6X800m to prepare for 1600m race. No concept what-so-ever in terms of "peaking"...
Nobby,
If a HS runner does 6x800m in the weeks leading up to a 1600m race that is important, you are horrified? Why, exactly? Do tempos / "long intervals" have no place during "peak phase"? What if it is a 25 year old?
Let's assume these 800s are much slower than 1600m race pace, with about 3min recovery.
Cheers
Darren Skuja
Nobby - Lydiard Part II training info you have referenced, will this be posted on the five circles site? The training stuff will be great to review.
Which weeks are you thinking of? If it's say, 4 weeks from serious racing it might be fine to do 6x800. If it's a couple of weeks away you don't want that much anaerobic work. You'd want the short, really fast sorts of sessions that Nobby describes and maybe some time trials.
Again, Arthur always said that you can't train hard and race hard simultaneously, well, at least not as successfully as you'd want. So by the time serious racing begins you don't want or need extended anaerobic sessions.
As far as I'm concerned, time and place and volume for everything. 6X800 for workout is perfectly fine; but she did it on Friday and the race (1600) would be on Wednesday. Why do them even slower than 1600 at that volume so close to the race?
By the way, skuj, is that you wearing that fancy red jacket like Elvis in the website? Looks cool, man!
Thanks HRE, Nobby....
I guess my point, (and you guys know that I'm not a Lydiardite but I do want to understand his ideas), is that 6x800m, even during race season for an 800m/1500m runner, say 10-14 days before a race, IS a valid thing to do "physiologically", and not a deeply anaerobic thing. In fact, it is MUCH LESS anaerobic than the sessions mentioned.
Thoughts? Would Arthur say absolutely there is no valid need for it? (Coe did 6x800m, short recovery, a little slower than 1500m race pace, in most 2 week blocks....2 weeks before a WR, 2 weeks before Olympics....Obviously he followed a different model than a pure Lydiard one....I just like to compare / contrast / dig deep.....please don't anyone see this as "Lydiard really didn't have it right", as so often happens when we compare and contrast! :) )
Haha...that red jacket was a celebration for a 5km Beginner Running clinic...a big day for the participants.
Cheers
Skuj
HRE wrote:
Which weeks are you thinking of? If it's say, 4 weeks from serious racing it might be fine to do 6x800. If it's a couple of weeks away you don't want that much anaerobic work. You'd want the short, really fast sorts of sessions that Nobby describes and maybe some time trials.
Again, Arthur always said that you can't train hard and race hard simultaneously, well, at least not as successfully as you'd want. So by the time serious racing begins you don't want or need extended anaerobic sessions.
How "anaerobic" do you think 6x800 is?
Wouldn't it depend on whether they are threshold pace intervals vs. power intervals???
How "anaerobic" do you think 6x800 is?[/quote]
If it's at mile pace very anaerobic. Nobby is referring (I think) to max effort for the intervals rather than threshold or power endurance.
Skuj (or should I call you "Studd" in red jacket?):
I know what you mean about what Coe might have done. We always hear about some tough workout that elite would do to "make them feel they are ready". They might do something like 3 X 1 mile at 4:15 and then he would know he'd be ready for a good 5000m race....something like that. When you think about it, for example, Richard Tayler did 5000m time trial a week before Commonwealth 10k in something like 13:30 "comfortably", now that's tough enough of a workout "only" a week prior to the important race. Well, you've got to remember, they usually have such high oxygen uptake level that they can recover so damn quickly (that's why Coe or Rono or Clarke would set world record after world record a week after week). That would be psychologically important. Snell would do 600m time trial or 1200m time trial very close to THE race.
A problem I see with a young athlete doing such workout like 6X800 is 1) with their relatively low oxygen uptake level, it's too tough of a workout to bounce back and do weel in THE race; or 2) they become not sharp enough that they probably don't do much for the actual racing 1600m. I really believe, with young developing athletes, it would be so much better to do something like 3~5 X 200m FAST with plenty of rest in between about 3~5 days before THE race. Or 600~1200m time trial. We used to do 1000m time trial 2~4 days before THE race (up to 5000m race) at Hitachi.
I guess the bottom line is; particularly with young developing athletes, do you want them doing a hard workout that they may or may not be able to bounce back in time to perform well (too tired)? And do you want them fresh and sharp for the race? If so, why don't settle with something short and sharp? A hard workout like 6X800 (fast) is fine if you're in shape to break world record two weeks in a row; but otherwise, using the example of Coe or Rono may not work too well for someone who wants to run 5:40 for 1600m.
I appreciate your reply, Nobby, and I understand what you are saying. Frankly, I do have a problem with this:
Nobby wrote:
A hard workout like 6X800 (fast) is fine if you're in shape to break world record two weeks in a row; but otherwise, using the example of Coe or Rono may not work too well for someone who wants to run 5:40 for 1600m.
Nobby, how fast is the girl you coach who did 3x1200m, from that other thread?
First of all, anyone who does this session at 1500m / Mile pace, well, they can run faster for the 1500m / Mile. I don't care how long the recovery is, it ain't going to be done at 1500m / Mile pace.
Secondly, the session, at maybe 3000m to 5000m pace, will be done many days out from an important race. It's not a sharpener session. It's something else entirely.
Third, ANYONE, a 3:50 Miler, or a 6min Miler, can benefit from this session IF they have some base, and IF they are at least mid teens. (I'm not talking about kids here.)
I've coached teenagers for 20 years. Some are ready for early season 5k's on the road, in preparation for middle distance track season. 6x800m is a part of "5000m training" which forms the basis of what we like to do, for all the reasons mentioned in Coe/Martin.
I needed to clarify these things, Nobby.
I appreciate this discussion.
Cheers
Darren Skuja
http://www.cvrr.ca/cvrr-tuesday-track-workouts.phpSkuj:
First off, I guess I should have said "a hard workout like 6X800 A WEEK OR SO BEFORE THE RACE is fine if..." unless that's not your point???
I'm not quite sure what your discussion is exactly but to ansewr your questions; I have NO idea how fast she'll be (we'll find out next month) and we don't really have an idea exactly how fast we were doing those 1200 either. I was doing them with her and monitoring her form/breathing and push her/hold her back depending on how she looked. They were probably around her 5k pace?????? Of course, we didn't know the exact distance either plus the loop has a couple of hills too. I told her to start out feeling like it's a 5k race but I don't think we could have held it for 3 miles (so most likely they were a bit faster than 5k pace?????). The last one picked up a bit simply because we ran into a weird snow storm (we actually saw it coming!) and we were running faster to get it over with! We did the second one 2 seconds slower than the first one and the last one 4 seconds faster than the first one. Otherwise, they were pretty even (?). If I held her on the third lap, she could have done the fourth one but I figured 3 would be enough (always one less than one more) but instead, I pushed just a notch at the end. Yeah, I'm sure flat out 1500/mile will be faster than repeats...
Second; yes, I agree with you. If you're doing 3000 or 5000, I don't think they will be a "sharpening". Sharpening should be just that; sharpening like sprints.
Third; yes, also agreed. You actually said it right; IF they have decent base. I have NO idea of this girl on the thread but I'd rather be more cautious than not. Most likely, kids in this country would be undertrained aerobically than overtrained.
I found your last line interesting. Yes, so you might have given your kid workout like 6X800 as a part of early season 5k race before your peak phase for middle distance. So workout like 6X800 doesn't have a place in your peaking phase either? Or is that 5k race his target race? Or was it more of a strength-building part of his main race(s)?
Thanks man!
Well, 6x800, 4x1200, 3x1600, etc....these kinds of sessions are done most weeks, 7-10 days before any race, most months of the year, ala Coe/Martin multipace training, as well as Cabral/Portugal model, for the reasons they give! :) At very controlled paces, ie aerobic capacity, for ANYONE with a base, teenager to 70 something! :)
5000m training is the CORE of what we do. Year round.
Darren Skuja
4-6x800 with about a 2minute rest is a large part of the Oregon system written about by Bill Dellinger and currently used by several very good collegiate coaches.
It is done year round with (obviously) the times of the reps varying depending on the shape of the athlete.
From the horse's mouth:
"It is possible to develop an ability to incur about 15-liter oxygen debt and this is done by exercising anaerobically. Developing big oxygen debts in training stimulates the body's metabolism to create buffers against fatigue. If this is understood, it will be realized that it does not really matter what form of running it takes, as long as you are making yourself tired with the volume of anaerobic exercise: and finish the training session knowing that you could not do much more nor any better. Therefore, it doesn't matter whether you use repetitions or interval training, over different distances with different intervals, you don't even need to time them: as long as you come off the track or from your training quite fatigued. "
The more I read the above the more I think Lydiard added Intervals just to please the coaches and runners of his day.
And from this actual book: "repetitions at more and less the distance of the chosen race distance"...and:
Example for a miler:
Mon Run 2 miles at quarter effort
Tues 4 x 800
Wed 12 x 300
Thur 6 miles at quarter effort
Fri 6 x 200
Sat 20 x 400
Sun 20 mile jog
-------------------------------------------------------
Instead of looking at a single workout: 6x800 w/800 jog. Look at the entire picture: 1 Long Run, 2-3 Interval Workouts, 1 Speed Workout. So let's say we have a 5k runner:
M easy running
T 6x800
W 2 miles of 50 sprint/50 float
T 12x400
F easy running
S 5x1000
S Long Run
His goal with the intervals is two fold: 1)make you tired but not so spent you can't walk (like we normally do workouts) and 2)prepare you for the race pace and distance. So that the 5000m worth of intervals at 15:00 pace translates to a 5000m time trial at close to 15:00 in the next segment of trainig. A leads to B leads to C.
I AM looking at the whole picture when I coach, RunningArt. I was simply focussing in one one aspect of what Nobby said. But now that you have posted, this Miler week example: Is THAT from Lydiard?You speak of intervals at race pace totalling the race distance, and I think that's fine here and there. But, for various reasons, other coaches would argue that there is room for 3x1600m for an 800m runner, and, there is room for 8x400m for a marathoner. IMHO, there is also room for "interval sessions" which are very submaximal, and give the feeling that you could do so much more, or so much faster. Preparing for the race and distance does involve looking at the whole picture, indeed. Frankly, until I become much more educated on Lydiard ideas, and I honestly am trying to be, these explanations of speedwork are just too simplistic for me.Please help me understand! :)CheersDarren Skujahttp://www.cvrr.ca/cvrr-tuesday-track-workouts.php
Runningart2004 wrote:
From the horse's mouth:
"It is possible to develop an ability to incur about 15-liter oxygen debt and this is done by exercising anaerobically. Developing big oxygen debts in training stimulates the body's metabolism to create buffers against fatigue. If this is understood, it will be realized that it does not really matter what form of running it takes, as long as you are making yourself tired with the volume of anaerobic exercise: and finish the training session knowing that you could not do much more nor any better. Therefore, it doesn't matter whether you use repetitions or interval training, over different distances with different intervals, you don't even need to time them: as long as you come off the track or from your training quite fatigued. "
The more I read the above the more I think Lydiard added Intervals just to please the coaches and runners of his day.
And from this actual book: "repetitions at more and less the distance of the chosen race distance"...and:
Example for a miler:
Mon Run 2 miles at quarter effort
Tues 4 x 800
Wed 12 x 300
Thur 6 miles at quarter effort
Fri 6 x 200
Sat 20 x 400
Sun 20 mile jog
-------------------------------------------------------
Instead of looking at a single workout: 6x800 w/800 jog. Look at the entire picture: 1 Long Run, 2-3 Interval Workouts, 1 Speed Workout. So let's say we have a 5k runner:
M easy running
T 6x800
W 2 miles of 50 sprint/50 float
T 12x400
F easy running
S 5x1000
S Long Run
His goal with the intervals is two fold: 1)make you tired but not so spent you can't walk (like we normally do workouts) and 2)prepare you for the race pace and distance. So that the 5000m worth of intervals at 15:00 pace translates to a 5000m time trial at close to 15:00 in the next segment of trainig. A leads to B leads to C.
And that 5k week example is from Lydiard too?
Darren Skuja