How come athletes are guilty first than proven innocent and then ruined for life.

Actually, as far as legalities are concerned, they are presumed innocent until bad stuff turns up in their system, then they can appeal.

Similar to you being assumed to be law abiding until the cop clocks you speeding, which you can then appeal.

What about Guys like Basso and Ullrich when an accusation is made they were forbidden to race and now are under serious specualation but ... NOTHING has been ever remotley proven... boy that sucks huh!

1. Landis is guilty of doping and a cheat. All the excuses in the world will change that.

2. Armstrong is guilty of doping and a cheat. All his parading around and PR work will not change that.

3. Barry Bonds is guilty of doping and a cheat. He will never be in the Hall of Fame, and will likely be brought up on charges of perjury.

4. Marion Jones, ditto. All her other b.s claims will eventually be seen for what they are.

The other cyclists you mentioned, who cares! They all are guilty by association.....

I honestly think that samples should be kept and restested as new testing becomes avail and positive tests should be be immediate grouinds for lifetime suspension......

xcjag wrote:

1. Landis is guilty of doping and a cheat. All the excuses in the world will change that.

2. Armstrong is guilty of doping and a cheat. All his parading around and PR work will not change that.

3. Barry Bonds is guilty of doping and a cheat. He will never be in the Hall of Fame, and will likely be brought up on charges of perjury.

4. Marion Jones, ditto. All her other b.s claims will eventually be seen for what they are.

The other cyclists you mentioned, who cares! They all are guilty by association.....

I honestly think that samples should be kept and restested as new testing becomes avail and positive tests should be be immediate grouinds for lifetime suspension......

So how much urine do you collect? At some point you test, test and test and will eventually run out of urine to be tested.

Not sure, that's one of the finer points that the specialists need to address.

xcjag wrote:

1. Landis is guilty of doping and a cheat. All the excuses in the world will change that.

2. Armstrong is guilty of doping and a cheat. All his parading around and PR work will not change that.

3. Barry Bonds is guilty of doping and a cheat. He will never be in the Hall of Fame, and will likely be brought up on charges of perjury.

4. Marion Jones, ditto. All her other b.s claims will eventually be seen for what they are.

The other cyclists you mentioned, who cares! They all are guilty by association.....

I honestly think that samples should be kept and restested as new testing becomes avail and positive tests should be be immediate grouinds for lifetime suspension......

You are a BIGOT! and an idiot. aside from Landis... who we have to assume is probably guilty but he is due his time in court and that will prove it.

2. Lance Armstrong is not guilty never has been ... if you pass as many tests as he has its pretty sure bet your not cheatin the system... over 100 tests a year and they never ever caught anything???

And as for the other cyclists I think you fit into the realm of people who are so slow and stupid that your jealousy of athletes makes you want them to be guilty so you feel better about your crappy 5k time in your home town fun run. Your probably a bitter old athlete who put on 20lbs and still dreams and wishes he could run sub 20 for a 5k...

Seriously this thread is about the damage thats done to athletes who are wrongly accused... If I walked into your place of work tommorow and told your boss and all your co-workers I had evidence that you were a drug addict and murder... but did not show the eviedence, how would you feel?

I wouldnt ever come out an say that a cyclist is a "clean" athlete. Cycling is by far the dirtiest sport (rivaled by XC skiiing) in the endurance realm. I would say overall, but I dont know what people take inpowerlifting and other "muscle mass" sports.

Of all the cyclists, Armstrong has to be the cleanest. He gets tested a million times and never got caught. Maybe he is smart about it? Either way, if someone came to me with a clear positive on Lance, I cant say I would be surprised at all.

Landis, Bonds Basso, Mrs. Jones are all clear cheats - they dont have Armstrongs excuse of no positive.

I dont think that anyone's 5k time or jealousy thereof changes the fact that cycling is dirty. The tour de france is the biggest joke of a sporting event on the earth because nobody can trust that the winner is legit. Anybody out there who disagrees in the Post-Armstrong cycling universe is crazy.

Basso

Hamilton

Landis...

Pro Cyclists cheat

Get the facts straight BASSO has NEVER EVER TESTED POSITIVE so ... you think thats the dirtiest ever... remember that USA Track and Field has in their HANDS a detailed report that lists the names of over 60 USA Track and Field athletes directly linked to BALCO and the Coaches there in... but the legally sealed the documents so that WADA etc.. could not do crap ... so whos dirty no BIIIIIAAAAAAAAAATCHHHHH

Listen, every endurance sport is tainted with performance enhancers - I didnt say that Track wasnt dirty - it is. There are a litany of people who have tested positive in track.

But to say it is dirtier than cycling is ridiculous. The cycling world has had whole teams caught with syringes and EPO. Cyclists dont even care to hide their drug use.

I also suppose you have seen the sealed documents. So, tell us who the 60 are big dog?

Cycling is a dirty, dirty sport.

Would you honestly be surprised to find out Lance was on a performance enhancer? I hope he wasnt - but it clearly wouldnt shock me.

BIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAATTTCHHHHH

I've followed all the doping allegations stuff pretty closely (isn't that sad?) and I haven't heard anything about this sealed document with 60 names. Do you have a link to an article or two that mentions/explains the situation?

(This isn't just a sarcastic letsrun post asking you to "f***in' prove it asshole!" I'm actually just interested in hearing about this.)

Even the great one, Eddy Merckx, was chucked out of the 1969 Giro d'Italia for a doping positive.

All of us cyclists cheat. From the great one down. I cant believe Floyd got caught - what an idiot!

MOM, THE MEATLOAF!

"Lance Armstrong is not guilty never has been ... if you pass as many tests as he has its pretty sure bet your not cheatin the system... over 100 tests a year and they never ever caught anything???"

Yeah, And those tests detect everything - including the new drugs that there is not a test to screen for. If you believe that, than you need to visit the "Armstrong Cafe" - Clear or Cream anyone???

"And as for the other cyclists I think you fit into the realm of people who are so slow and stupid that your jealousy of athletes makes you want them to be guilty so you feel better about your crappy 5k time in your home town fun run. Your probably a bitter old athlete who put on 20lbs and still dreams and wishes he could run sub 20 for a 5k..."

Very good characterization of me - you must have ESP - not really. I'm fairly certain my 5k pr would put me in the realm of "very good", not great, but kinda like AAA level in baseball. I do not run anymore and have no desire to race in any hometown fun run - I had my moment, and have moved on - so I really couldn't give two hoots about running a certain time, nor do I harbor any jealousy toward athletes - I was one and respect them (well, most of them). For the record, I did not put on 20lbs since I stopped running - it's more like 50lbs - I guess running 80-100 mile weeks kinda keeps you thin....

"Seriously this thread is about the damage thats done to athletes who are wrongly accused... If I walked into your place of work tommorow and told your boss and all your co-workers I had evidence that you were a drug addict and murder... but did not show the evidence, how would you feel?[/quote]"

I'm glad that you have made yourself the self-appointed dictator of this thread. I welcome you to try to walk into my facility.... IF you could get in and make the claims that you are making, it really wouldn't make any difference they're my employees, if they didn't like it, they can work elsewhere...... Much like you, you didn't like what I had to say - so, you can move on to another thread...

That rambling incoherent response gains you no points.

We are all dumber for having read it, and may god have mercy on your soul..

That aside, I think I agree....

Hmmm wrote:

What about Guys like Basso and Ullrich when an accusation is made they were forbidden to race and now are under serious specualation but ... NOTHING has been ever remotley proven...

Since I'm a running fan and not a cycling fan (hence why I hang out at letsrun and not letscycle), I don't know the details of the cases of the two you mention.

What is the nature of the accusation? Is there some substance to it or enough to give rise to a reasonable possibility of guilt? Why do we lock up accused murderers before they have a chance to go to trial (where they are presumed innocent)?

Further, maybe I'm missing something, but are the cycling races public events such that anyone has a right to enter? Or are they privately run operations that can choose which type of personalities they want to be associated with?

this is such an interesting and novel topic. thats why this board is so good--you discuss things you've never seen anywhere else before.

I am fat slow and bitter and I own all threads... evreyone listen to me I am wicked cool and still think I am the best I run a company yippie

xcjag wrote:

"Lance Armstrong is not guilty never has been ... if you pass as many tests as he has its pretty sure bet your not cheatin the system... over 100 tests a year and they never ever caught anything???"

Yeah, And those tests detect everything - including the new drugs that there is not a test to screen for. If you believe that, than you need to visit the "Armstrong Cafe" - Clear or Cream anyone???

thread...

So... what you're saying is that you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Lance Armstrong was taking some form of performance enhancing drugs; ones that were, at the time, undetectable by any known tests? Is that you claim? I'm dead serious, do you know that Lance did any of this?

...Because if you don't, even if you believe he was the dirtiest cyclist ever, you can't actually claim or support any other claims that he did anything but ride his bike. While you may be correct, your current arguement is illogical and unsupportable by anything other than you opinion, which, especially in an anonymous environment such at this, means precisely nothing to anyone but you (and those of similar opinion). I'm not saying you can't go on arguing about it, but you can't be honest about it, since your arguement is based on something that is completely unrelated to the doping issue, i.e. your personal opinion. You have made your point sir, you can go now.

Asterix wrote:

What is the nature of the accusation? Is there some substance to it or enough to give rise to a reasonable possibility of guilt? Why do we lock up accused murderers before they have a chance to go to trial (where they are presumed innocent)?

Further, maybe I'm missing something, but are the cycling races public events such that anyone has a right to enter? Or are they privately run operations that can choose which type of personalities they want to be associated with?

The Spanish Police collected evidence in a BALCO-like investigation. Much of this was breaking news in the weeks prior to the Tour de France. Apparently some evidence was made available to the team managers of Ivan Basso and Jan Ullrich (the two favorites to win the race) and those riders (and others) were voluntarily withdrawn from the Tour and UCI events for the remainder of the season.

There have been no charges filed against either rider and the information that was shared with the teams has not been made public. Basso has signed with the Discovery Cycling Team (Lance's old team) for the 2007 season and is expected to race next year.

Road cycling at this level is a team sport and teams participate in events such as the Tour de France essentially by qualifying or by invitation of the race committee, that is, it is not an "open event". To ride in the event, one must be a member of one of the top teams.