"Diversity" in schools =Racism?

Well, several of the non-Asian examples you're so fond of citing are from a century or more ago. To be fair, Asia has lagged behind the West in development until the end of last century, and except for areas like Japan, Korea, eastern China, parts of India, they are still concerned with more day to day problems.

Instead of looking at a few select individuals, consider the makeup of certain sectors as a whole. Engineering, computer science, and mathematics, even in the US, are dominated by Asians (and to some extent eastern Europeans). This is where the grunt work is being done to improve standards of living. I'm not so sure we should be proud of developing something like nuclear power.

You know who John Nash is, right? Well, he couldn't have proven his famous "existence theorem," one of the most monumental results in economic history, without a recent fixed point theorem given by Shizuo Katukani.

Heard of Fermat's Last Theorem? The most famous ever in mathematics that took centuries to prove. Andrew Wiles could never have proven that without results from the 50's and 60's by Goro Shimura (and Taniyama).

Go pick up a respected journal in mathematics, economics, or most scientific fields, and look at the last names of contributors.

Fine, it's also 6 times the number of students the PU could accomodate!

The GPA quoted is the one calculated by Princeton which doesn't have such bonuses.

Federal funding for research but not for the undergrad program. Until recently the largest single donation was from Gordon Wu (son of a Hong Kong taxi driver), $M100.

Not to mention Chandarasekar and Raman, Dan Tsui (Princeton), Sam Ting, Tomonaga, Tanaka, Lee etc.

What do you think would happen to the undergrad program if there was no research money? Good professors would have no interest in coming there, and undergraduates wouldn't have those research experiences that render a school like Princeton so unique. I have a hard time believing 5,000/16,000 applicants to Princeton never had so much as a single A-. If that's the case, grade inflation is worse than I imagined. And there are still plenty of dumb kids who manage to slip their way through the cracks.

I guess the main point I am trying to make is that admission into top schools is flawed, and the blame can't be placed anywhere in particular. Due to the sheer number of applicants, the final pool of candidates does end up being very good.

The high schools are inflating grades, probably due to pressure from parents who want nothing more than their school's grading standards to be on par or slightly easier than other places.

The admissions officers are overwhelmed with many qualified applicants, and because it is so easy now to get an A in high school (not for me, I graduated 6 years ago with a 3.58 weighted GPA) it is hard to tell who is truly deserving of entry and who isn't. Things like letters of recommendation and notable achievements in extracurriculars help, as well as knowing the reputation of the school, but the only real constant is SAT score. However, some kids study religiously for it while others don't study at all, and while it is designed to measure "aptitude," studying certainly does help even at the upper extreme (though marginally).

Graduate admissions are perhaps even more loaded with qualified applicants, especially those subjects that attract lots of international applicants. I am finishing up a math graduate program this year and applying to economics phd programs for next year, and just looking at the acceptance rates of top schools makes me rather depressed. Unless you have recommendations from well known researchers or a blue ribbon publication, admission is next to impossible. As someone aptly put it, "An 800 on your GRE is akin to having no criminal conviction."

kartelite wrote:

In 30 seconds of searching on Google I found this,

"Princeton’s groundbreaking "Fragile Families and Child Wellbeing Study" has received a $17 million federal grant for its ongoing examination of unmarried parents and their children."

$17 million! So much for surviving off alumni donations!

You moron, Princeton has an endowment of $9.6

BILLION. $17 million here or there is a drop in the bucket to these folks.

If federal funding went away, Princeton would make it up in alumni donations, if only to keep pace with Harvard and Yale. (Harvard's endowment is ~$30 billion, Yale ~ $13 billion.)

kartelite wrote:

What do you think would happen to the undergrad program if there was no research money? Good professors would have no interest in coming there, and undergraduates wouldn't have those research experiences that render a school like Princeton so unique.

Of course, that's why we do the research but it doesn't fund the school. Lack of federal funding would assuredly impact the science and engineering programs. Lack of alumni giving would close the place, absent federal research funding PU would become a primarily liberal arts school (much like it was prior to the post war expansion of federal research funding).

I have a hard time believing 5,000/16,000 applicants to Princeton never had so much as a single A-. If that's the case, grade inflation is worse than I imagined. And there are still plenty of dumb kids who manage to slip their way through the cracks.

Which is why we don't rely on the numbers to the extent that Li and others would like! I can't say I've encountered many of those 'dumb kids who slip through the cracks' though. Regarding your personal incredulity I do encounter plenty of freshman who never failed to get an A at high school, however they're often not the best students, adaptation to the different requirements of university can be difficult for someone who's always found it easy at HS.

I'd say SAT score is way less important than you think, essays, recommendations and interviews are key.

I wouldn't pay much attention to admission rates since there are huge numbers of applicants who don't really have a chance at top universities, especially from overseas. Graduate school application is a much more personal process than undergraduate and as you say the school reputation and personal recommendations are extremely important. That's why I advise all my undergraduates to get to know as many professors really well, it really helps when applying to grad school.

"FACT - I currently attend an Ivy League school. I am a genius. I went to a very good public school and destroyed every test I ever took, every class, etc. However, I find myself almost completely without peers at my school. The VAST majority of students are either A. prep school kids without real concern for academics B. athletes, and although a large percent of them are black, they are almost all inarguably retarded C. various other people who got in based on "intangibles" (such as writing some fabricated, heart-wrenching story about a grandparent's death, or, of course, THEIR SKIN COLOR (not exactly "intangible" I suppose)) who have no business being there because they have no true intellect or desire to change the world for the better"

FACT - This dude is a prick and is also what is wrong with Ivies.

The Great Khan conquered and occupied Russia for 250 years and his grandchildren controlled the largest land empire in history including Palestine, Iraq, Hungary, Poland, Czech Rep, Slovakia, Prussia, Northern India, Iran, Turkey, half of Germany, all of China, plus too many countries to name here. An Asian did that. If you family has any Eastern European roots, that\'s where your slanty eyes and high cheekbones comes from, as he \'quartered\' conscripts into the homes of Eastern Europeans, propagating the Mongol genes. The English only controlled salt water and fish and chips ;-)

You Fools,

Diversity is what keeps America from falling prey to homogeneous mythology, a la early 20th century Germany. A diverse population is immune to mythologically based propoganda. And mythology is all the WASPs have, these days.

So go ahead: call us Macaca, Taser us, do your worst.

StupidWhiteBoy days are numbered, as in 3,2,1...

And America will be the greater for it.

Love,

Eratosthenes

Ahhhh the Great Khan

Ghengis Khan is certainly viewed as an "Asian" in the West but to all of Asia except the Mongolians, Khan was nothing more than a ruthless illiterate uncultured barbarian. Sure he was a ruthless warrior and military genius...but he was little else. His dynasty in China was one of the shortest and it only survived that long by adopting Chinese culture to the point they were more Sinofied than the Chinese themselves. His extermination of Chinese peasantry ranks right up there with the ranks of Hitler, Stalin and Mao..

Ask any Japanese what the original "Kamikaze" was...the divine wind that destroyed the invading MOngolian fleet

Ask a Chinese about messages in mooncakes..a method to spread the word to rebel against the Mongols..

Sure, the current Chinese regime claims him as a Chinese for strategic reasons (if Khan is Chinese, China can lay claim to areas of Mongolia serving as a buffer between China and Russia)and economic (to justify land claims inth Gobi desert rich in oil and minerals)

The West has always been enthralled with Khan as European Colonialists operated in the same fashion as Khan..through violence, brutality and intoxicating power

Brian Green, Mart Ratner check them out. Ratner's work on logic gates hasn't been fully appreciated yet.

M.A. Reed, (((C. Zhou))), C.J. Muller, T.P. Burgin, and J.M. Tour, “Conductance of a molecular junction”, Science 278, 252 (1997)

yes Zhou helped in the math. I'm not saying they haven't helped or assisted or aren't capable of understanding what has been applied, I'm saying that due to the social constraints placed on asians by their respective cultures, namely Confucianism, Communism, Socialism and filial piety have reduced their creativity. Its not their fault, it's their cultures fault, and until they shun Clientelism for more market based principals they will continue to lag behind in creativity. Still though, after Wen Joo Lee I don't know if its possible to trust a bunch of Asians proclaiming a new 'ground breaking' discovery. Maybe a Japanese lab in robotics, but thats it.

The Japanese have more than half the world\'s hard cash reserves. That\'s a scientific fact.

abacus, I respect you. I agree, kids like the brat are whats wrong with the ivies. I can say so because I too am enrolled at an Ivy. Most of the kids here have no understanding that every principle they preach is wrong.

Abortions do not help women-more female fetuses the world over are aborted than male,

Social Programs have become unsustainable due to slowing population growth,

Illegal immigration will destroy free social programs because the benefactors were not taxed to begin with,

Higher taxes lead to poor economic growth,

Lack of Free trade and protectionism hurt a hightech advanced economy like ours,

Foreign kids bring in bedbugs to our campuses.

I for one am sick of my fellow students and their lack of understanding of everything fundamental about how their lives came to be and why they can live the way they do. I personally see kids of Asian Descent cheating, In fact I would say more asians cheat due to threat from their parents of performing poorly. Asians are the most prolific cheaters I have encountered. Also, they need to learn english before coming here as a student, researcher, or ta.

Most students here preach changing the world for the better but don't understand the dynamics at work behind those changes. You can pay for a hospital and school in Mozambique, but if they students are going to grow up to become warlords and the only doctors are western educated or doctors without borders you have made little difference. Instead giving the people market principals and creating labor, commodity, and capital markets would be far more beneficial than creating schools or hospitals as rash as that sounds. Few understand this, even fewer have the charisma to preach it. Thats whats wrong with the world, and when I say asians are not smarter than everyone else they aren't, they are just held to a higher level by their parents and peers and thus MUST perform to those standards, that is their cultural norm. I hope I have made myself clear.

DOnt know if this has been mentioned cuz i'm not reading everyone of these things but diversity canbe learning abilities also.

name these two individuals. if you can without google you get a carrot. if you can't you're asian.

Please, Asians do put in much more study time - as do Jewish students. We could go into IQ, but more important is structure of IQ, which is why you can have a population that excels at study, comprehension, memorizing, but doesn't invent or create or develop a lot of breakthroughs. But I digress...

Asians study, do well. However, in admissions, they are only compared to other Asians, as Whites are compared to other whites, etc. This is a part of affirmative action no one talks about. When non-whites, including Asians, are compared against Whites, they will, over 90% of the time, get the nod over the white applicant, even if the white is a bit superior on grades, test scores, etc. I know, I worked for a school in the UC system - in admissions - until last year. AA hurts Whites, hurts Asians - but not as much as Whites, and it allows many, many, thoroughly underqualified Blacks and 'Hispanics' (a strange, ridiculous term) to enter schools they have no business in attending. All this does is make the qualified Blacks etc. look bad.

As for Mr. Li, other factors must be at work, because Asians with lower scores were admitted ahead of him. We are not hearing the full story. If he was accepted by Cal Tech, go there, as they still have somewhat high standards in comparison to the Ivy League schools which are becoming jokes. They are propaganda mills. Believe me, the UC schools are not far behind unless you stick to the sciences. There is a problem in the UC schools with 'connected' people getting in - just as in the Ivy League schools, most of them White, and a very disproportionate number of those Whites being Jewish. But the connected people have money and press clout, so you won't hear much about it.

Actually, the SAT has become ridiculous in itself. While it does (or did) test certain 'areas' of a persons IQ so to speak, the 'weight' of questions has been altered, the test has been recentered, and now there is the 'essay' - while the grading is supposed to be color blind, you can bet it isn't, as it is a fact that if you are non-white, you stand a good chance of being handed a great score. That's just the way it is right now.

yeah, so non whites get better sat scores for their answers, how typical. and they still need affirmative action, again how typical. and you can have assholes saying they didn't get in, how typical.

Heres the new test, its called the real world. Instead of being allowed into college, a group of 5000 potential undergrads for a Yale College class go into the work force with the credential as being a 'Yale College Finalist'. After two years of work, either in a Lab, Business, etc. those that do the best IE the ones that make the most money, learn the most, have the most beaming resume's and recommendations, the best athletes, those who creat the most successful business are allowed in.

Oh yeah, they must recieve no recommendations from family or friends or be employed by family or friends. Upon review if they are found to have recieved assistance in this manner they are thrown out of the school.

Or, better, yet, for military academies we could have a battle royale type deal.

Lets make College FUN!